NBC Washington DC doing a little solar fear mongering

[bcroe]

NEC panels continue to rack their brains to come up with theoretical safety improvements while real dangers still exist: http://www.today.com/health/electric...family-t111764

Regarding the article, regs have existed for pools, etc for a long time. I actually did some GFI development
for our labs in 1969. I could tell you a horror story about the baptismal pool in my church; fortunately nobody
got hurt before I got wind of it and took action. That problem appears to be one of enforcement. Our panels
on the other hand, are a whole new problem, which I have been heard to grumble about. Sure us who have
been around industry, vacuum tube TVs, and HAM transmitters have some understanding and respect, but
suddenly its everywhere the uneducated public lives. Bruce (400V) Roe

[adoublee]

NEC panels continue to rack their brains to come up with theoretical safety improvements while real dangers still exist: http://www.today.com/health/electric...family-t111764

[ButchDeal]

As shown in this image (from my installation thread) https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/filed...6&d=1493591263 my wiring is about as tight as it can be.

I had asked my installer (who has done several hundred ground mounts in San Diego county) about critters and wires, and they said from their experience over the years it's not an issue. Obviously, only time will tell ...

In terms of people, the whole backyard is fenced, and we don't have people going through the yard (on an acre at a dead end private street); for example, no trick or treaters in 27 years.

looks clean.

We have had several critter damaged DC cables (though that would come out to a very small percentage). all of ours have been rooftop but then we install a lot more rooftop than ground mount. Still the potential is there particularly with kids in neighborhoods, one never knows what those little bipeds will do.

[CharlieEscCA]

You have up to 600V at ground level. Many jurisdiction require fencing to prevent people to access it.
You also have a lot of glass panels at ground level. Yes they are pretty tough but small kids and wild animals do strange things to equipment like this.

you can't easily protect the array wiring (except with a fence) as many large and small animals will nibble on the insulation. Keeping the wires tight and close to the racking helps keep larger animals from nibbling.

As shown in this image (from my installation thread) https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/filed...6&d=1493591263 my wiring is about as tight as it can be.

I had asked my installer (who has done several hundred ground mounts in San Diego county) about critters and wires, and they said from their experience over the years it's not an issue. Obviously, only time will tell ...

In terms of people, the whole backyard is fenced, and we don't have people going through the yard (on an acre at a dead end private street); for example, no trick or treaters in 27 years.

[bcroe]

We do have lots of ground squirrels and deer, but so far they haven't been interested in my wiring. If they
were, I'd have to make some more upgrades. Here where it rains MANY times a month, and the lawn is
mowed, brush fires aren't an issue. Bruce Roe

[ButchDeal]

I am one of the owners who doesn't want the risk of a high powered panel system on my roof; I'd say
its mostly a fire risk. Is it MORE dangerous 600' away on the south acre? Certainly not to me, the
area is fenced, not accessible from any road, some wildlife is at risk. There are warning signs all over.

Most homeowners do NOT have this much space and are not as remote as you (or as educated on the systems).
We have no problem and have done ground mounts. It is the homeowner in small neighborhoods with 1/4 acre land (or less) often shaded ground that I am talking about here.
There are kids, deer, chipmunks, etc all damaging the equipment on the ground. Not that many would worry about the chipmunk but say one chews a little on some wires and then a kid comes in and completes the circuit...

However slight though, even in your case you still have the fire risk with it out in the field (ok you have 600' of brushfire to catch before it hits your house though).

[bcroe]

We have customers that want solar but want it ground mounted because it is too
dangerous on the house, we try to explain that ground mount is more dangerous and it is safe on the house.

I am one of the owners who doesn't want the risk of a high powered panel system on my roof; I'd say
its mostly a fire risk. Is it MORE dangerous 600' away on the south acre? Certainly not to me, the
area is fenced, not accessible from any road, some wildlife is at risk. There are warning signs all over.

Where it is more risky, is that someone (me?) might smash into it accidentally. Biggest concern is
snow removal, which is actually possible; I don't see it as practical on a roof, even worse if tried.
I don't want to be slipping on the ice and falling through a panel. Using insulated snow pushers,
the system is getting reworked to greatly minimize this problem. Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

What's dangerous about a ground mount system?

Not disputing, but want to know what cautions I should be taking with my newly installed ground mount system -- which up to now I would have assumed is safe to touch / safe to wash off (in the first daylight before sun hits the panels).

What is unsafe is the chance of someone that does not understand electricity coming in contact with energized wires above 50V.

As Butch states most JHA require some type of fencing or barrier & signs to keep out and warn people that may touch or cut the energized wires. That would be dangerous. Unfortunately animals can't read so they don't know better not to eat the wire so the type of fence to keep them away is important.

[ButchDeal]

What's dangerous about a ground mount system?

Not disputing, but want to know what cautions I should be taking with my newly installed ground mount system -- which up to now I would have assumed is safe to touch / safe to wash off (in the first daylight before sun hits the panels).

You have up to 600V at ground level. Many jurisdiction require fencing to prevent people to access it.
You also have a lot of glass panels at ground level. Yes they are pretty tough but small kids and wild animals do strange things to equipment like this.

you can't easily protect the array wiring (except with a fence) as many large and small animals will nibble on the insulation. Keeping the wires tight and close to the racking helps keep larger animals from nibbling.

[CharlieEscCA]

... we try to explain that ground mount is more dangerous ,,,

What's dangerous about a ground mount system?

Not disputing, but want to know what cautions I should be taking with my newly installed ground mount system -- which up to now I would have assumed is safe to touch / safe to wash off (in the first daylight before sun hits the panels).

[ButchDeal]

Hi Everyone,

Long time lurker and first time posting. I actually was motivated to register to reply to this thread. While I'm a big fan of solar, I'm also a 3rd generation volunteer firefighter. I realize there's a lot of emotion on both sides of this issue and I'm not even going to address the circus show that is the American media.

I'm in the process, right now, of having a 12kW PV system installed on my roof right now. Having had several large DC UPS systems at work (including one small DC backplane fire) and after recently having the commercial solar system at our local shopping mall catch fire (also a relatively small electrical fire) I was/am somewhat concerned about having higher voltage (~480V) running on my roof. While I realize these are exceptions and there are thousands of residential 120VAC eletrical fires every year, I did stop and ask myself am I sure this is a good idea?

This was one of the key reasons I would have preferred an Enphase solution for its panel level MPPT, rapid shutdown and low 120VAC wiring. But since Enphase has been teetering on the brink of financial ruin for a couple years now, and because they don't make microinverters that will work with my Panasonic 330W panels, and because most installers I spoke with were recommending SolarEdge, that's the direction we chose. I think SolarEdge is a great solution, and the DC voltage at 350V is not too bad. Obviously it has panel level rapid shutdown as well.

Enphae uses 240V AC wiring not 120V AC.
SolarEdge is arguably safer solution than enphase though only a bit.

But, as a firefighter, here's the thing. Even though I know a lot about solar, and know that many systems can be safely de-energized. Because systems are so heterogeneous (string, micro, optimizer, different string lengths, DC voltages, wiring schemes, batteries, etc.) one can never be sure what you will find when you roll up on a fire. In the seconds you have to put together a plan to try and put out the fire while simultaneously trying to assess whether anyone might still be in the home and need to be rescued, I don't have time to trace wiring plans and lookup inverter model numbers on the internet.

While bylaws and requirements vary by jurisdiction, in many/most settings volunteer firefighters are largely considered to be "good Samaritans" and are not obligated to protect property. That is to say, if the leadership decides it is not safe to enter a structure or that its not safe to spray water on an energized structure, we will absolutely let it burn (assuming no one is trapped inside to the best of our knowledge).

There are label requirements at the meter, and disconnect making it easy to find.

I agree that the training could be improved. Here are some decent examples of current solar training materials (ther first couple PPT and PDF's)
https://www.google.com/search?q=sola...hrome&ie=UTF-8

But here's the thing, even with all the training in the world. Because every solar solution is different, there will always be doubt and concern over FF safety. When there is doubt, the FF will act in their own best interests to minimize their risk of harm.

The only real "solution" I see going forward is a multi-pronged approach:

1) Mandate the use of panel level rapid shutdown solutions for all new systems residential and commercial (perhaps this is part of the new NEC 2014/2017 requirements, I haven't read them)

It is part of NEC 2017. NEC 2014 has array level rapid shutdown. NEC 2017 has module level

2) Placard all legacy non-compliant systems including commercial

All systems should currently have placards.

3) Placard all new compliant systems including commercial

All systems are placarded

4) Have the NFPA/UL conduct electrical conduction testing using different voltages, nozels, spray patters, and flow rates.

This is done and the NEC codes and rapid shutdown are based on their suggestions

5) Develop safety tools to check for voltage/current

There are already some of these and the NBC article does mention one such tool though they claim it is the first of its kind, I am pretty sure "of its kind" is very specific since others can be purchased from the likes of Sears, homedepot, etc.

While I know for certain that high voltage (>5000V) can easily travel up the water stream from a high voltage line electrical to a FF (I had such training at the PECO Electric FF training facility in Philadelphia), I personally have my doubts that this will work if the voltage is low (<500V). But honestly I don' know.

Let's keep everyone safe, homeowners included!

[JSchnee21]

Hi Everyone,

Long time lurker and first time posting. I actually was motivated to register to reply to this thread. While I'm a big fan of solar, I'm also a 3rd generation volunteer firefighter. I realize there's a lot of emotion on both sides of this issue and I'm not even going to address the circus show that is the American media.

I'm in the process, right now, of having a 12kW PV system installed on my roof right now. Having had several large DC UPS systems at work (including one small DC backplane fire) and after recently having the commercial solar system at our local shopping mall catch fire (also a relatively small electrical fire) I was/am somewhat concerned about having higher voltage (~480V) running on my roof. While I realize these are exceptions and there are thousands of residential 120VAC eletrical fires every year, I did stop and ask myself am I sure this is a good idea?

This was one of the key reasons I would have preferred an Enphase solution for its panel level MPPT, rapid shutdown and low 120VAC wiring. But since Enphase has been teetering on the brink of financial ruin for a couple years now, and because they don't make microinverters that will work with my Panasonic 330W panels, and because most installers I spoke with were recommending SolarEdge, that's the direction we chose. I think SolarEdge is a great solution, and the DC voltage at 350V is not too bad. Obviously it has panel level rapid shutdown as well.

But, as a firefighter, here's the thing. Even though I know a lot about solar, and know that many systems can be safely de-energized. Because systems are so heterogeneous (string, micro, optimizer, different string lengths, DC voltages, wiring schemes, batteries, etc.) one can never be sure what you will find when you roll up on a fire. In the seconds you have to put together a plan to try and put out the fire while simultaneously trying to assess whether anyone might still be in the home and need to be rescued, I don't have time to trace wiring plans and lookup inverter model numbers on the internet.

While bylaws and requirements vary by jurisdiction, in many/most settings volunteer firefighters are largely considered to be "good Samaritans" and are not obligated to protect property. That is to say, if the leadership decides it is not safe to enter a structure or that its not safe to spray water on an energized structure, we will absolutely let it burn (assuming no one is trapped inside to the best of our knowledge).

I agree that the training could be improved. Here are some decent examples of current solar training materials (ther first couple PPT and PDF's)

https://www.google.com/search?q=solar+panels+firefighter+safety+ppt&rlz=1C1CKMB_enUS497US497&oq=solar+safety+fire&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j0l5.9848j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But here's the thing, even with all the training in the world. Because every solar solution is different, there will always be doubt and concern over FF safety. When there is doubt, the FF will act in their own best interests to minimize their risk of harm.

The only real "solution" I see going forward is a multi-pronged approach:

1) Mandate the use of panel level rapid shutdown solutions for all new systems residential and commercial (perhaps this is part of the new NEC 2014/2017 requirements, I haven't read them)
2) Placard all legacy non-compliant systems including commercial
3) Placard all new compliant systems including commercial
4) Have the NFPA/UL conduct electrical conduction testing using different voltages, nozels, spray patters, and flow rates.
5) Develop safety tools to check for voltage/current

While I know for certain that high voltage (>5000V) can easily travel up the water stream from a high voltage line electrical to a FF (I had such training at the PECO Electric FF training facility in Philadelphia), I personally have my doubts that this will work if the voltage is low (<500V). But honestly I don' know.

Let's keep everyone safe, homeowners included!

[SunEagle]

That is my thought as well.

I doubt it is a political motivation. Probably from either the fossil fuel industry or the POCO's in the MD area.

[ButchDeal]

I believe for some reason NBC (which is usually very pro RE) is trying to drive fear into people using half truths and old solar installation data.

I am not sure why but I would put money on a bet that this type of news involves big dollars going to them from somewhere.

That is my thought as well.

[SunEagle]

A broader view might be that's what you get when the educational system fails with the result that the population becomes as dumb as cattle.

I believe for some reason NBC (which is usually very pro RE) is trying to drive fear into people using half truths and old solar installation data.

I am not sure why but I would put money on a bet that this type of news involves big dollars going to them from somewhere.