NBC Washington DC doing a little solar fear mongering

[sensij]

you can see from the footage that the entire roof has collapsed except for the array with the rails being the only thing still standing from wall to wall.

Neat. I had sort of wondered if the rails would provide enough structural support to make false the statement regarding increased risk of collapse.

[J.P.M.]

absolutly though there are too many people that think this is news. We have customers that want solar but want it ground mounted because it is too dangerous on the house, we try to explain that ground mount is more dangerous and it is safe on the house.
With Musk spewing his vapor ware claims,
News spitting out safety issues
Coal/oil pushing anti net metering,
Trump on ani-solar
failing slow moving solar companies

We are in for a terrible year here. Hell they are reporting that solar is doomed because the moon occasionally block the solar power oh my god what will we do?

A broader view might be that's what you get when the educational system fails with the result that the population becomes as dumb as cattle.

[ButchDeal]

Firefighter ignorance and firefighter safety are related. The story also provides this quote:



Again, I would assert that if they feel the need to develop their own tools to assess the relative safety of the array, the industry is letting them down. That same dynamic apparently played out in the 2017 NEC development as well, per an industry periodical, and although it sounds like the end result will be better, we have a lot of years of installations to go up still before much of the country needs to follow the new requirements.

Yes I agree. And more to the point the SEIA is letting them down. Both with the poor quotes, lack of training standards etc. The article does a poor job focusing on training though and the voltage detector isn't going to help with training. Further it will require considerable training in and of itself.

Managed to find a firefighter who was hurt by solar in 2015 in CA. he went to the hospital with numbness in his arm.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...363414051.html

It is interesting it is in CA though as they have quite a bit of firefighter training and PV regulations...

Also here is the news story on the fire footage used in this footage. Note the fire was started by a lawnmower and solar had nothing to do with it. The firefighters had no problem shutting off the solar and fighting the fire.

http://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/East-Bridgewater-Massachusetts-Fire--420237474.html?akmobile=o

you can see from the footage that the entire roof has collapsed except for the array with the rails being the only thing still standing from wall to wall.

[sensij]

If a firefighter sees solar panels and says "let er burn", that's a story about firefighter ignorance versus firefighter safety.

Firefighter ignorance and firefighter safety are related. The story also provides this quote:

"We can develop the best standards in the world, but if no one knows what they are, it doesn't really matter," Hopper said. "So I would say standards and education are really the two key elements."

Again, I would assert that if they feel the need to develop their own tools to assess the relative safety of the array, the industry is letting them down. That same dynamic apparently played out in the 2017 NEC development as well, per an industry periodical, and although it sounds like the end result will be better, we have a lot of years of installations to go up still before much of the country needs to follow the new requirements.

Fire service representatives submitted a proposal to control conductors within the array to 80 V or less. The Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA) submitted a competing proposal to refine the NEC 2014 requirements and make them more enforceable. This heated debate continued during the public comment period, as stakeholders developed new concepts for addressing electrical hazards within the PV array. As a result of this debate, the fire service and SEIA proposals found more common ground by the end of the comment period. The SEIA proposal focused on reducing hazards within the PV array by requiring listed and labeled or field-labeled rapid-shutdown PV arrays, a concept that NFPA's Fire Fighter Safety and PV Systems Task Group developed. The fire service included this same requirement as a compliance option added to its original proposal.

[ButchDeal]

Are you saying that several kW of power at 400+ V is safe to work around on

Yes installers do it all the time... Yes SolarEdge and Micros are a bit safer but that doesn't seem to stop people from installing string inverters. I have a string inverter, granted mine only goes to 150V ..

a burning roof?

Well thats the danger. And fire chiefs assess the danger of the fire all the time, pulling men off when they deem it to dangerous.

My system is well labeled. I also have a sister and brother in law who work in a VA county near to DC as volunteer firefighters. They mentioned that they have had zero training on solar, and so I gave them a brief course on it. The issue though is that the story claims to be about training and a voltage detector but seems to be much more slanted towards fear and hardly hits on training.

[adoublee]

I'm sorry, I didn't know first hand knowledge of someone getting hurt is required for a hazard to be considered serious. Are you saying that several kW of power at 400+ V is safe to work around on a burning roof?

With this logic no home would be allowed to utilize any natural gas appliance, and you wouldn't be able to drive a car. It's about mitigation of unreasonable risk, not manufacturing all possible risks. Again, if firefighters were really at risk int these circumstances, they would already be training for that risk.

If a firefighter sees solar panels and says "let er burn", that's a story about firefighter ignorance versus firefighter safety.

[ButchDeal]

I'm sorry, I didn't know first hand knowledge of someone getting hurt is required for a hazard to be considered serious. Are you saying that several kW of power at 400+ V is safe to work around on a burning roof? Existing training for how to deal with arrays allows fire safety personnel to develop opinions like "it is better to let it burn than risk electrocution". I don't really believe that is true, but I do believe that some people who need to make split second second life or death decisions might think it is, because they haven't been taught (or refuse to believe) anything different. Is there a safe way to reduce the voltage within the array of a string inverter system in an emergency? 2014 rapid shutdown covers from the array to the inverter, but on the roof is still uncontrolled. Maybe this kind of news report should be a wake-up call to SEIA that whatever support they are providing for fire safety training is not yet enough. Why do firefighters have to develop their own tools to determine if an array is at a safe voltage?

Yes, SolarEdge and microinverters are intrinsically safer. There are still many, many *new* string inverter systems being installed that have no means for dropping voltage on the rooftop to safe levels.

I can't defend the *tone* of the reporting any more than I can defend the tone of the ubiquitous Solar City guy who wants to talk to me every time I walk into Home Depot. I don't see much in what was actually reported that is counter-factual or "fake", though.

The story mentioned the word "training" 3 times but nearly every comment is about electrocution.
For training it has one about firemen should be trained to deal with solar, news4 found that they don't have regular training, and Frederick county chief states he doesn't know that they have a specific training ...

The articles hits repeatedly on the dangers of rooftop solar that there are no standards for it (which there are). They even hit on two things that are also covered by code standards, added weight, and setbacks. if they were are problem shouldn't they have interviewed someone about the codes? But no they give the president of SEIA 2 sentences that happen to confirm other statements from firemen who all stated that they have had no training in the matter anyway.

[sensij]

Hate to be the "provide me a source" guy, but I have not heard about a single firefighter injury from solar generated electricity. Injury from a fire does not count as that is what the risk is. If it was a risk, why would a figherfighter not be trained in it?

I'm sorry, I didn't know first hand knowledge of someone getting hurt is required for a hazard to be considered serious. Are you saying that several kW of power at 400+ V is safe to work around on a burning roof? Existing training for how to deal with arrays allows fire safety personnel to develop opinions like "it is better to let it burn than risk electrocution". I don't really believe that is true, but I do believe that some people who need to make split second second life or death decisions might think it is, because they haven't been taught (or refuse to believe) anything different. Is there a safe way to reduce the voltage within the array of a string inverter system in an emergency? 2014 rapid shutdown covers from the array to the inverter, but on the roof is still uncontrolled. Maybe this kind of news report should be a wake-up call to SEIA that whatever support they are providing for fire safety training is not yet enough. Why do firefighters have to develop their own tools to determine if an array is at a safe voltage?

Yes, SolarEdge and microinverters are intrinsically safer. There are still many, many *new* string inverter systems being installed that have no means for dropping voltage on the rooftop to safe levels.

I can't defend the *tone* of the reporting any more than I can defend the tone of the ubiquitous Solar City guy who wants to talk to me every time I walk into Home Depot. I don't see much in what was actually reported that is counter-factual or "fake", though.

[EnergyKurt]

Yep... you can't fix dumb. First thing they should do on any fire is pull the meter ( that solves both problems) Houses have had electricity for along time wouldn't really matter how they were electrocuted in my mind...

[adoublee]

there are lots of string inverter systems still being installed today that would represent a hazard to untrained firefighters in daytime conditions.

Hate to be the "provide me a source" guy, but I have not heard about a single firefighter injury from solar generated electricity. Injury from a fire does not count as that is what the risk is. If it was a risk, why would a figherfighter not be trained in it?

[ButchDeal]

Systems can be installed so that they drop to <30 V everywhere. Unfortunately, that requirement doesn't exist yet

You do know that SolarEdge and all micro inverters currently can drop all voltages to below 30V right?

, and there are lots of string inverter systems still being installed today that would represent a hazard to untrained firefighters in daytime conditions.

OK yes there are older homes that do not meet even NEC 2014 though MD has had this for a bit.
The issue is that the story is tilted fear, with several statements about no way to make it safe that it is best just to let it burn to the ground and even with the voltage detector that will not help so much as tell the firefighters to just let your home burn to the ground...

it is just fear they are selling in the story. even starts with video of a house fire and fireman saying the best thing they could do was let it burn....

[ButchDeal]

TV news is entertainment not information. Wouldn't surprise me if she lit a brush fire under some panels to "make her point".

absolutly though there are too many people that think this is news. We have customers that want solar but want it ground mounted because it is too dangerous on the house, we try to explain that ground mount is more dangerous and it is safe on the house.
With Musk spewing his vapor ware claims,
News spitting out safety issues
Coal/oil pushing anti net metering,
Trump on ani-solar
failing slow moving solar companies

We are in for a terrible year here. Hell they are reporting that solar is doomed because the moon occasionally block the solar power oh my god what will we do?

[sensij]

Systems can be installed so that they drop to <30 V everywhere. Unfortunately, that requirement doesn't exist yet, and there are lots of string inverter systems still being installed today that would represent a hazard to untrained firefighters in daytime conditions.

[adoublee]

TV news is entertainment not information. Wouldn't surprise me if she lit a brush fire under some panels to "make her point".

[ButchDeal]

Might be interesting to see how far this goes. You ready to commit to a fight where the other side has the mute button ?

wow she is doubling down on the assertion with me that even with Rapid shut down the array remains energized. She asked if I want to spray water on 30V too