Power companies going the way of the landline by 2030?

[J.P.M.]

Ian you lost the argument. Accept the fact Solar PV with storage is useless and a waste of resources. End of story.

It might not be cost effective or practical at this time, but the future's not written over the past, so maybe the story's not quite over just yet.

Derrick: I bet you'd prefer plant operations to R & D huh ? I think we need both types.

[Sunking]

Ian you lost the argument. Accept the fact Solar PV with storage is useless and a waste of resources. End of story.

[Ian S]

Try reading them. Each one has more supporting links from peer reviewed scientist, engineers, and universities. It is a simple fact battery systems are well below 1 EROI and thus a waste of resources. Even solar PV on commercial scale does not work with EROI of 3 to 5. Wind barely makes it at 7 to 8, and hydro are the only renewable sources that work. Neither Wind or Hydro can supply current demand, there is no more meaningful hydro to utilize, and wind is very geographically limited and unreliable to be considered a source. That only leaves you fossil fuel and nuclear to work with. Longer you put it off, the more painful and expensive it will be. It is not hard to understand.

I'm not sure those links show what you think they do. Take your linked article in IEEE Spectrum, hardly a bastion of loony greens BTW:

The researchers calculated the energy return on investment (EROI) for various storage technologies in combination with solar and wind power. First of all, when it comes to solar, all technologies considered, including compressed air storage and batteries like zinc-bromine and vanadium redox, worked better than curtailing the generation. So, for solar: always store what you can, no matter what storage medium you've got lying around. The best energy returns come from compressed air and pumped hydroelectric, but lithium-ion batteries aren't bad either.

See what I bolded? So Li-ion batteries are pretty close to compressed air and pumped hydro in EROI. What's more, looking at the tiny chart provided, I can't see that EROI for solar with Li-ion battery storage ever drops even close to 1 in EROI. As for the data in your chart from the bravenewclimate article, it gives EROI of solar without storage as 3.9 which seems very pessimistic compared to other estimates e.g. it's half of what was assumed in your IEEE Spectrum article. Some of that may have arisen by considering PV in Germany, which I'm sure we can all agree is not optimum for solar production compared to say where I live. For that same PV system here in the desert, the numerator in the EROI calculation would be far higher and so would EROI itself.

[DanKegel]

SunKıng - The green brıgade (notice I didn't use the term loony) has their minds made up - no hope for them as science has no meaning to Obama and cohorts.

Science is really, really important.

Making rational decisions requires following the data whereever it leads, no matter how painful or embarassing it is for one's own views or wishes.

It pains me when lawmakers try to keep scientists from doing their job, or when people assume that they can get good science from partisan talk radio or cable news shows.

Getting to the truth requires patience, humility, and flexibility... not to mention a good dose of science literacy, things many pundits and politicians seem to lack.

[DanS26]

I'm going out on a limb here.....I firmly believe that energy transmission technology is going to be the long term energy technology solution. Energy storage is going to be disruptive short term, but energy transmission technology will change the energy industry around the world.

Your local power company is not going away....they will just have to tap into the unlimited energy source of the sun shining 24/7 somewhere on the earth. The light side will be constantly feeding the dark side....if you can transmit that power without loss around the globe.

Why build 50,000 nuclear power plants when you only need one and it is already in production.

[DanKegel]

It is a simple fact battery systems are well below 1 EROI and thus a waste of resources. Even solar PV on commercial scale does not work with EROI of 3 to 5.

The analysis you're pointing to may have been a bit off; see

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael_Carbajales-Dale/publication/271699871_Energy_return_on_investment_(EROI)_of_solar_PV_an_attempt_at_reconciliation/links/54f872050cf2ccffe9df2bcc.pdf

for some critiques. For instance, it assumes you need ten days of storage.
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...-scale-storage suggests 4 hours may be sufficient.

So, what's the EROI of PV when you use natural gas generators as a backup for cloudy days?
I bet it's a heck of a lot better than the 3 to 5 you quote. Or what if you use a battery for just one hour of peak shaving? Again, probably a lot better than 3 to 5.

[LETitROLL]

What California is doing is applying a little foresight. That way, we adapt ahead of when the market (or nature) would otherwise demand it.

Is that the same foresight the Liberal officials running that state have used with WATER?, I think i see a pattern developing here. People that can accomplish anything, as long as they have somebody else's money (or other resources) to do it with. Power wont be an issue, they will save a bunch of it when all the water pumps run dry and seize up.

[russ]

Unlike the climate change deniers who do not ignore science, they just make up their own?
That said, let's try to keep the politics out of the discussion to the extent that is possible when discussing the future.

I simply mentioned name where science has no meaning. Climate changers Follow what science?

[Sunking]

Oh boy: "lots of links."

Try reading them. Each one has more supporting links from peer reviewed scientist, engineers, and universities. It is a simple fact battery systems are well below 1 EROI and thus a waste of resources. Even solar PV on commercial scale does not work with EROI of 3 to 5. Wind barely makes it at 7 to 8, and hydro are the only renewable sources that work. Neither Wind or Hydro can supply current demand, there is no more meaningful hydro to utilize, and wind is very geographically limited and unreliable to be considered a source. That only leaves you fossil fuel and nuclear to work with. Longer you put it off, the more painful and expensive it will be. It is not hard to understand.

[inetdog]

SunKıng - The green brıgade (notice I didn't use the term loony) has their minds made up - no hope for them as science has no meaning to Obama and cohorts.

Unlike the climate change deniers who do not ignore science, they just make up their own?
That said, let's try to keep the politics out of the discussion to the extent that is possible when discussing the future.

[russ]

SunKıng - The green brıgade (notice I didn't use the term loony) has their minds made up - no hope for them as science has no meaning to Obama and cohorts.

[solar pete]

Love this thread, just got back from CA full jet lagged and read this and it made me laugh.

Now SK can you please refrain from calling everyone a communist..others are entitled to a point of view, doesnt matter if they are right or wrong. This thread is a good un and I would like to see the debate continue, cheers all and remember to play nice

[DanS26]

Who said anything about fossil fuel. Nuclear is dirt cheap, 1 million years of fuel, domestic, and completely safe. California is not ahead of the curve, they are falling way behind and are dependant on their neighboring states to survive at whatever cost is the neighbors wish to charge. Going to be kind of funny watching all those trains passing through CA into Baja with all that US coal and US jobs generating electricity to send back to CA.

"completely safe" is what concerns most people and gives them pause when you consider earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning, terrorist attacks, internal dissidents, sabotage internal and external to the plant, invasion, missile attack, and lets not forget just plain human stupidity and complacency to safety rules...............hmmmmmmm maybe completely and safe is not so certain.

[inetdog]

Oh boy: "lots of links." Probably lots of hand-waving too! Oh and an aside to any mods who are waiting to pounce on anything I might say: can I assume that it's permissible to insult others here by calling them Communists or is that a privilege accorded only to a few?

It is generally not permissible to engage in name calling of any sort, but I think that Dereck is literally grandfathered in and some allowances are made for crotchety old men.

We (at least I) respect your opinions too, but please do your best to keep it civil from your side.

[Ian S]

It is coming as soon as the mods approve the post with lots of links. Your post got NUKED by mods for BS Blather.

Bottom line Pump Back Hydro and Compressed Air are the highest EROI electric storage and those two as less then 1 whether you like it or not.

Oh boy: "lots of links." Probably lots of hand-waving too! Oh and an aside to any mods who are waiting to pounce on anything I might say: can I assume that it's permissible to insult others here by calling them Communists or is that a privilege accorded only to a few?