Power companies going the way of the landline by 2030?

[Sunking]

I like smart meters. I hope that they get rolled out broadly, and used to help set up the right economic incentives to get us off fossil fuels.

I knew it you want a Nanny State and are a Socialist. Smart Meter allow Big Brother to look inside your home and control you. That is what they are made to do.

[DanKegel]

I knew it you want a Nanny State and are a Socialist. Smart Meter allow Big Brother to look inside your home and control you. That is what they are made to do.

They enable things like time-of-use pricing and peak demand pricing, and to let you see your usage hour-by-hour.

Do you dislike time-of-use pricing?

[Sunking]

Do you dislike time-of-use pricing?

Hate it, never would I live in a state that is forced to use such poor energy policies. CA energy policy put you in that position. You guys don't seem to understand that. Your neighboring states are holding you in bondage because you failed to implement an energy policy to be self supporting. As a result Ca now imports 30% of your electrical energy and your neighbors can charge you whatever they want. You got exactly what you asked for. In 20 short years CA went from importing 10% to 30% when energy policy shifted from conventional to renewable energy. It is not working. What part do you not understand? You are getting screwed and you like it.

Do you even know there are many states who pay less than 10-cents per Kwh, and if you use more than say 2000 Kwh/month the rate goes even lower? More you use, the cheaper it is. Why would anyone put up with paying more if you use more? But for some unexplained reason you support charging more if you use more. That makes you a Socialist and Redistribution of Wealth. In other words a Communist. Wear your Sign, you earned it.

[Dapperjman]

I thought TOU pricing was to reduce high demand periods, which in turn allows you to size smaller equipment. Since you build the grid to handle the peak times, you pay for some capacity that is rarely used. I definitely don't think everyone should be on a TOU rate but larger accounts that have some flexibility (like irrigation) should.

[DanKegel]

What California is doing is applying a little foresight. That way, we adapt ahead of when the market (or nature) would otherwise demand it.

I suppose if you want to bury your head in the sand, and keep burning fossil fuel to the max, you might object to that.

[Ian S]

I'm curious to know where you're getting your figures from.

Yeah, so am I. So, how about it Sunking: let's see some links to data proving your claim that EROI on off-grid systems is less than one? Gee, for some reason, my previous post disappeared.

[Ian S]

Hate it, never would I live in a state that is forced to use such poor energy policies. CA energy policy put you in that position. You guys don't seem to understand that. Your neighboring states are holding you in bondage because you failed to implement an energy policy to be self supporting. As a result Ca now imports 30% of your electrical energy and your neighbors can charge you whatever they want. You got exactly what you asked for. In 20 short years CA went from importing 10% to 30% when energy policy shifted from conventional to renewable energy. It is not working. What part do you not understand? You are getting screwed and you like it.

Do you even know there are many states who pay less than 10-cents per Kwh, and if you use more than say 2000 Kwh/month the rate goes even lower? More you use, the cheaper it is. Why would anyone put up with paying more if you use more? But for some unexplained reason you support charging more if you use more. That makes you a Socialist and Redistribution of Wealth. In other words a Communist. Wear your Sign, you earned it.

LOL! This is from the same guy who opposes net metering because it forces POCOs to credit solar produced kWh's one for one and not make a profit but now rants that the same POCOs shouldn't be able to charge based on the POCOs' actual intra-day cost of electricity. He apparently wants the low cost night time user to pay the same as the high cost afternoon user. Talk about wealth redistribution!

[Sunking]

I suppose if you want to bury your head in the sand, and keep burning fossil fuel to the max, you might object to that.

Who said anything about fossil fuel. Nuclear is dirt cheap, 1 million years of fuel, domestic, and completely safe. California is not ahead of the curve, they are falling way behind and are dependant on their neighboring states to survive at whatever cost is the neighbors wish to charge. Going to be kind of funny watching all those trains passing through CA into Baja with all that US coal and US jobs generating electricity to send back to CA.

[Sunking]

But you may have better data than I do, so I'm curious to know where you're getting your figures from.

Easy to find if you want to.

Germany Solar PV is so far the highest at 3.5 which is way below the minimum 7. Common Logic ought to tell you if Solar PV Active is at best 3.7, and once you throw in th eefficiency of batteries and those energy inputs drop EROI to less than 1. It is just a well documented fact the Greenies do not want anyone to know about.

Reference 1
IEEE
Stanford University which wil lead you to many studies that will also say batteries are a looser.

What it boils down to is Pump Back Lake Hydro, and Compressed air are the best known to modern man for stored energy and neither one even comes close to a 1. Pumped back hydro which the USA has already done back post WW-II and no more can be done is the highest EROI as most of the energy to make them is diesel fuel to move earth. Once you consider that and the amount of energy it takes to pump back water, and then energy regained from release is an EROI of around .5 to .6, and only really works if you are storing wind energy because a wind mill has the minimum EROI of 7 to make it usable. Solar is not usable no matter how you spin it, and battery is pathetic.

You might as well get use to the idea nuclear is the only real answer and the longer we wait, the worse it will get.

About the rosiest picture you can find is from Forbes who is heavily invested in batter technology concede battery is pointless. They conclude based on what they think battery tech (Lithium) will be in 20 years predict a Solar PV Battery EROI of 2 which is way below any economic scale. Here is the article and a graph of where they think it is going. Not pretty. There is no way you can argue any Pb, nickel or any battery chemistry known today has a EROI even approaching 1. Just a fact.

EROI-Book-Figure.jpg

Go look for yourselves but you are not going to find much telling you what you wish was true. No scientific reviewed material support an EROI even coming close to 1.

[Sunking]

Yeah, so am I. So, how about it Sunking: let's see some links to data proving your claim that EROI on off-grid systems is less than one?

It is coming as soon as the mods approve the post with lots of links. Your post got NUKED by mods for BS Blather.

Bottom line Pump Back Hydro and Compressed Air are the highest EROI electric storage and those two as less then 1 whether you like it or not.

--- Mod Note: Your wish is my wish. The post has now appeared at the spot in the time line where you actually posted it.

[Ian S]

It is coming as soon as the mods approve the post with lots of links. Your post got NUKED by mods for BS Blather.

Bottom line Pump Back Hydro and Compressed Air are the highest EROI electric storage and those two as less then 1 whether you like it or not.

Oh boy: "lots of links." Probably lots of hand-waving too! Oh and an aside to any mods who are waiting to pounce on anything I might say: can I assume that it's permissible to insult others here by calling them Communists or is that a privilege accorded only to a few?

[inetdog]

Oh boy: "lots of links." Probably lots of hand-waving too! Oh and an aside to any mods who are waiting to pounce on anything I might say: can I assume that it's permissible to insult others here by calling them Communists or is that a privilege accorded only to a few?

It is generally not permissible to engage in name calling of any sort, but I think that Dereck is literally grandfathered in and some allowances are made for crotchety old men.

We (at least I) respect your opinions too, but please do your best to keep it civil from your side.

[DanS26]

Who said anything about fossil fuel. Nuclear is dirt cheap, 1 million years of fuel, domestic, and completely safe. California is not ahead of the curve, they are falling way behind and are dependant on their neighboring states to survive at whatever cost is the neighbors wish to charge. Going to be kind of funny watching all those trains passing through CA into Baja with all that US coal and US jobs generating electricity to send back to CA.

"completely safe" is what concerns most people and gives them pause when you consider earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning, terrorist attacks, internal dissidents, sabotage internal and external to the plant, invasion, missile attack, and lets not forget just plain human stupidity and complacency to safety rules...............hmmmmmmm maybe completely and safe is not so certain.

[solar pete]

Love this thread, just got back from CA full jet lagged and read this and it made me laugh.

Now SK can you please refrain from calling everyone a communist..others are entitled to a point of view, doesnt matter if they are right or wrong. This thread is a good un and I would like to see the debate continue, cheers all and remember to play nice

[russ]

SunKıng - The green brıgade (notice I didn't use the term loony) has their minds made up - no hope for them as science has no meaning to Obama and cohorts.