Power companies going the way of the landline by 2030?

[Sunking]

Yeah, so am I. So, how about it Sunking: let's see some links to data proving your claim that EROI on off-grid systems is less than one?

It is coming as soon as the mods approve the post with lots of links. Your post got NUKED by mods for BS Blather.

Bottom line Pump Back Hydro and Compressed Air are the highest EROI electric storage and those two as less then 1 whether you like it or not.

--- Mod Note: Your wish is my wish. The post has now appeared at the spot in the time line where you actually posted it.

[Sunking]

But you may have better data than I do, so I'm curious to know where you're getting your figures from.

Easy to find if you want to.

Germany Solar PV is so far the highest at 3.5 which is way below the minimum 7. Common Logic ought to tell you if Solar PV Active is at best 3.7, and once you throw in th eefficiency of batteries and those energy inputs drop EROI to less than 1. It is just a well documented fact the Greenies do not want anyone to know about.

Reference 1
IEEE
Stanford University which wil lead you to many studies that will also say batteries are a looser.

What it boils down to is Pump Back Lake Hydro, and Compressed air are the best known to modern man for stored energy and neither one even comes close to a 1. Pumped back hydro which the USA has already done back post WW-II and no more can be done is the highest EROI as most of the energy to make them is diesel fuel to move earth. Once you consider that and the amount of energy it takes to pump back water, and then energy regained from release is an EROI of around .5 to .6, and only really works if you are storing wind energy because a wind mill has the minimum EROI of 7 to make it usable. Solar is not usable no matter how you spin it, and battery is pathetic.

You might as well get use to the idea nuclear is the only real answer and the longer we wait, the worse it will get.

About the rosiest picture you can find is from Forbes who is heavily invested in batter technology concede battery is pointless. They conclude based on what they think battery tech (Lithium) will be in 20 years predict a Solar PV Battery EROI of 2 which is way below any economic scale. Here is the article and a graph of where they think it is going. Not pretty. There is no way you can argue any Pb, nickel or any battery chemistry known today has a EROI even approaching 1. Just a fact.

EROI-Book-Figure.jpg

Go look for yourselves but you are not going to find much telling you what you wish was true. No scientific reviewed material support an EROI even coming close to 1.

[Sunking]

I suppose if you want to bury your head in the sand, and keep burning fossil fuel to the max, you might object to that.

Who said anything about fossil fuel. Nuclear is dirt cheap, 1 million years of fuel, domestic, and completely safe. California is not ahead of the curve, they are falling way behind and are dependant on their neighboring states to survive at whatever cost is the neighbors wish to charge. Going to be kind of funny watching all those trains passing through CA into Baja with all that US coal and US jobs generating electricity to send back to CA.

[Ian S]

Hate it, never would I live in a state that is forced to use such poor energy policies. CA energy policy put you in that position. You guys don't seem to understand that. Your neighboring states are holding you in bondage because you failed to implement an energy policy to be self supporting. As a result Ca now imports 30% of your electrical energy and your neighbors can charge you whatever they want. You got exactly what you asked for. In 20 short years CA went from importing 10% to 30% when energy policy shifted from conventional to renewable energy. It is not working. What part do you not understand? You are getting screwed and you like it.

Do you even know there are many states who pay less than 10-cents per Kwh, and if you use more than say 2000 Kwh/month the rate goes even lower? More you use, the cheaper it is. Why would anyone put up with paying more if you use more? But for some unexplained reason you support charging more if you use more. That makes you a Socialist and Redistribution of Wealth. In other words a Communist. Wear your Sign, you earned it.

LOL! This is from the same guy who opposes net metering because it forces POCOs to credit solar produced kWh's one for one and not make a profit but now rants that the same POCOs shouldn't be able to charge based on the POCOs' actual intra-day cost of electricity. He apparently wants the low cost night time user to pay the same as the high cost afternoon user. Talk about wealth redistribution!

[Ian S]

I'm curious to know where you're getting your figures from.

Yeah, so am I. So, how about it Sunking: let's see some links to data proving your claim that EROI on off-grid systems is less than one? Gee, for some reason, my previous post disappeared.

[DanKegel]

What California is doing is applying a little foresight. That way, we adapt ahead of when the market (or nature) would otherwise demand it.

I suppose if you want to bury your head in the sand, and keep burning fossil fuel to the max, you might object to that.

[Dapperjman]

I thought TOU pricing was to reduce high demand periods, which in turn allows you to size smaller equipment. Since you build the grid to handle the peak times, you pay for some capacity that is rarely used. I definitely don't think everyone should be on a TOU rate but larger accounts that have some flexibility (like irrigation) should.

[Sunking]

Do you dislike time-of-use pricing?

Hate it, never would I live in a state that is forced to use such poor energy policies. CA energy policy put you in that position. You guys don't seem to understand that. Your neighboring states are holding you in bondage because you failed to implement an energy policy to be self supporting. As a result Ca now imports 30% of your electrical energy and your neighbors can charge you whatever they want. You got exactly what you asked for. In 20 short years CA went from importing 10% to 30% when energy policy shifted from conventional to renewable energy. It is not working. What part do you not understand? You are getting screwed and you like it.

Do you even know there are many states who pay less than 10-cents per Kwh, and if you use more than say 2000 Kwh/month the rate goes even lower? More you use, the cheaper it is. Why would anyone put up with paying more if you use more? But for some unexplained reason you support charging more if you use more. That makes you a Socialist and Redistribution of Wealth. In other words a Communist. Wear your Sign, you earned it.

[DanKegel]

I knew it you want a Nanny State and are a Socialist. Smart Meter allow Big Brother to look inside your home and control you. That is what they are made to do.

They enable things like time-of-use pricing and peak demand pricing, and to let you see your usage hour-by-hour.

Do you dislike time-of-use pricing?

[Sunking]

I like smart meters. I hope that they get rolled out broadly, and used to help set up the right economic incentives to get us off fossil fuels.

I knew it you want a Nanny State and are a Socialist. Smart Meter allow Big Brother to look inside your home and control you. That is what they are made to do.

[DanKegel]

I like smart meters. I hope that they get rolled out broadly, and used to help set up the right economic incentives to get us off fossil fuels.

Demand charges can be fair. They're so new for residential that I haven't wrapped my head around them yet, but I imagine the right thing to do is to set out a ten year schedule of slowly increasing demand charges, starting at 0% of total power company revenue and ramping up to whatever level provides sufficient incentive for local demand management and possibly local storage.

I don't think it's particularly fair to single out solar customers as the guinea pigs for demand charges, but if they're small and don't inhibit the growth of solar, it's probably ok.

[J.P.M.]

Fair has nothing to do with it. Who said business/life/anything has to be fair ? That's not the way the game is run. Believe otherwise at your own risk.

[Dapperjman]

Depends on what you mean by fair, and how important nurturing the nascent solar industry is.
The power companies are all slowly switching to smart meters and introducing demand charges. Is that fair? Some are using doing that for solar users first. Is that fair? Many offer subsidies of some sort for renewable energy. Is that fair?

Me, I think that anything that gets us off fossil fuel by 2050 is fair, so I'd like to see tarrifs that set the proper market incentives, plus limited time decreasing subsidies, to get us moving in that direction fast enough. Nothing can be done by fiat or wishful thinking, but business as usual is not really an option if we want to avert catastrophe.

I guess I meant fair only in a financial sense. I'd like to see us move away from fossil fuels as well, and I hope the rate structures and policies don't kill solar. Do you not think demand charges are fair for anyone, especially solar users?

[Power Planet]

Africa's Role in Solar Energy

I agree with the post.

Did you know that Africa is currently under going a total make over. Africa is switching to alternative energy.

Read more here

[DanKegel]

Hey Pleppik,

What would be your solution for utilities to satisfy solar customers while also providing fair prices to everyone else?

Depends on what you mean by fair, and how important nurturing the nascent solar industry is.
The power companies are all slowly switching to smart meters and introducing demand charges. Is that fair? Some are using doing that for solar users first. Is that fair? Many offer subsidies of some sort for renewable energy. Is that fair?

Me, I think that anything that gets us off fossil fuel by 2050 is fair, so I'd like to see tarrifs that set the proper market incentives, plus limited time decreasing subsidies, to get us moving in that direction fast enough. Nothing can be done by fiat or wishful thinking, but business as usual is not really an option if we want to avert catastrophe.