The Boom Gets Lowered On Residential Solar In Arizona

[HX_Guy]

Which meters shows it? The one before the AC disconnect or the main one in the service panel? Which number screen is it?

[HX_Guy]

As I understand it, SRP will only charge based on demand from the grid. Interestingly, my APS meter shows that demand number. Guess they thought ahead!

Here is an article that goes into quite a bit more detail not he SRP plan and also has input from APS. As you mentioned, APS does look it will go the same route...which in a sense is good, at least compared to charging per installed kW.

Quote from APS's parent company president/CEO...

"SRP's proposal includes several rate design principles that we have been advocating — primarily, better alignment of fixed and variable costs," he said. "While each utility may have a different rate structure, it is clear from the national discussion, and here in Arizona, that appropriately addressing the unfair cost shift and aligning the fixed and variable discrepancy are top priorities."

SRPs argument is that even if solar customers are not using the grid as much, they still need to have the demand available in case it's needed which is where their demand rate justification comes in. I guess I can buy into that, but how do they come up with the rates they are charging? Are they taking into effect the benefit the solar provides them in not needing to generate as much? I like how another state even took the carbon footprint into account when figuring out the benefit.

Speaking of the rates, not even sure how this $50 is being figured because it seems like it's a lot more than that to me. From the article, he average solar customer's peak demand of about 8 kilowatts will bring a demand fee of about $80. That will be offset a bit by charging solar customers less for the electricity they purchase. Finally, the basic service fee for solar customers will increase $12.50, to $32.50.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/2015/03/02/rooftop-solar-billing-issues-far-settled/24255847/

[thastinger]

Seems pretty simple to me...if the entire grid was solar everyone would go dark when a cloud came over, you have to pay for grid capacity. What you're witnessing is a simple swing in special interest money. The politicians sucked the PV industry dry and the PV industry sucked the tax payer dry, once there is no one left to pay, the environment changes back to how it should have been all along.

[HX_Guy]

So here's another spin on this which I hadn't heard yet...

Someone on another forum said in Northern California, the POCO actually measures your Demand kW both on the consumption end AND the generation end, and uses the higher of the two for your bill.

Their logic is that they need to have the capacity to cover your max in case your solar is off-line or it's cloudy etc. Makes sense I hate to say it but wow, talk about no way to beat the system in that scenario.

SRP here locally is actually saying to mitigate demand, solar customers should face their panels to the west to help in the late afternoon sun when the AC's are cranking at max power or to supplement the system with batteries. So it does seem they are just monitoring your peak Demand from the actual grid, not the peak demand your house actually needs.

[SunEagle]

So here's another spin on this which I hadn't heard yet...

Someone on another forum said in Northern California, the POCO actually measures your Demand kW both on the consumption end AND the generation end, and uses the higher of the two for your bill.

Their logic is that they need to have the capacity to cover your max in case your solar is off-line or it's cloudy etc. Makes sense I hate to say it but wow, talk about no way to beat the system in that scenario.

SRP here locally is actually saying to mitigate demand, solar customers should face their panels to the west to help in the late afternoon sun when the AC's are cranking at max power or to supplement the system with batteries. So it does seem they are just monitoring your peak Demand from the actual grid, not the peak demand your house actually needs.

SRP is looking out for itself trying to get the co-generators to produce more and use less during peak usage times like the afternoon. That is why they are asking for the West panel orientation. I think they are giving some type of reduced rate as an incentive to those co-gens that provided more power back at peak times.

IMO finding a middle ground where the POCO and customer is happy should reduce some stress. Unfortunately in the end the POCO is trying to make as much money as possible and the customer is trying to save as much as possible. There will always be some type of conflict with the two different priorities.

[J.P.M.]

SRP is looking out for itself trying to get the co-generators to produce more and use less during peak usage times like the afternoon. That is why they are asking for the West panel orientation. I think they are giving some type of reduced rate as an incentive to those co-gens that provided more power back at peak times.

IMO finding a middle ground where the POCO and customer is happy should reduce some stress. Unfortunately in the end the POCO is trying to make as much money as possible and the customer is trying to save as much as possible. There will always be some type of conflict with the two different priorities.

That conflict you write of has always been there in one form or another. It's just business - or life. The POCOs are not evil monsters by nature all the time any more than consumers of the POCO's product are universally self centered, wastefully indulgent, spoiled children - although it seems at times that each is often viewed that way by the other, perhaps with a kernel of truth to both views.

POCOs are doing what they believe is the best for their shareholders/owners. IMO, most could do a lot better in the PR dept. Customers are doing the easier of either blaming someone else (the POCO) for the consequences their (high) electrical use, or using less of the POCO's product. By the amount of bitching about how customers feel they're getting screwed vs. the amount of discussion about how to reduce an electric bill, it looks like it's probably still easier to blame someone else for one's ills than to turn off a light.

[Sunking]

That conflict you write of has always been there in one form or another. It's just business - or life. The POCOs are not evil monsters by nature all the time any more than consumers of the POCO's product are universally self centered, wastefully indulgent, spoiled children - although it seems at times that each is often viewed that way by the other, perhaps with a kernel of truth to both views.

POCOs are doing what they believe is the best for their shareholders/owners. IMO, most could do a lot better in the PR dept. Customers are doing the easier of either blaming someone else (the POCO) for the consequences their (high) electrical use, or using less of the POCO's product. By the amount of bitching about how customers feel they're getting screwed vs. the amount of discussion about how to reduce an electric bill, it looks like it's probably still easier to blame someone else for one's ills than to turn off a light.

Well said.

[SunEagle]

That conflict you write of has always been there in one form or another. It's just business - or life. The POCOs are not evil monsters by nature all the time any more than consumers of the POCO's product are universally self centered, wastefully indulgent, spoiled children - although it seems at times that each is often viewed that way by the other, perhaps with a kernel of truth to both views.

POCOs are doing what they believe is the best for their shareholders/owners. IMO, most could do a lot better in the PR dept. Customers are doing the easier of either blaming someone else (the POCO) for the consequences their (high) electrical use, or using less of the POCO's product. By the amount of bitching about how customers feel they're getting screwed vs. the amount of discussion about how to reduce an electric bill, it looks like it's probably still easier to blame someone else for one's ills than to turn off a light.

I agree with you and Sunking.

I was trying to state (and probably failed) that In My Opinion, it is in everyone's best interest to come to an agreement that is acceptable with both the POCO and it's customers.

Although what is perceived by the customers (as you pointed out) is that the POCO has a primary motivation which is in direct "conflict" with the customer and therefore they are considered greedy evil monsters. While in reality they are just business people that are in a competitive investment world.

Of course if you have invested in the POCO stocks and are also a customer then that might have a personal dilemma as to who is the "bad guy".

[Sunking]

Of course if you have invested in the POCO stocks and are also a customer then that might have a personal dilemma as to who is the "bad guy".

The irony is if you have a company 401K, you own utility stock. No portfolio should be without utility stock. Recession proof, guaranteed profit margin that pays dividends. What is not to like? I own some in both 401 and Roth. One of the very few buy and hold stocks left on the market.

[SunEagle]

The irony is if you have a company 401K, you own utility stock. No portfolio should be without utility stock. Recession proof, guaranteed profit margin that pays dividends. What is not to like? I own some in both 401 and Roth. One of the very few buy and hold stocks left on the market.

Currently no longer have 401k. Just about all of my investments are in a Roth or an Annuity. Still there are some utility components in both those investments.

So I guess I own a "piece of the Grid".

[Sunking]

Currently no longer have 401k.

Did you just go ahead and take the TAX hit on 401K conversion? I hear you on ROTH, best game in town.

[SunEagle]

Did you just go ahead and take the TAX hit on 401K conversion? I hear you on ROTH, best game in town.

I was able to roll the 401k into the Roth in multiple installments so didn't have to pay any tax. The Roth has been doing a little be better then the Annuity but I have no plans on touching that for another 6 years.

[azdave]

Getting back on topic...


With the recent overall SRP rate increase and a new "demand" fee applied only to residential on-site generation customers, SRP also now forces all customers with on-site generation into a single TOU plan (E-27). If you go solar now with SRP you don't have to worry about what price plan to choose.

I am lucky that I was grandfathered with my older install. I'm pretty sure I'm locked into my old TOU plan now for 20 years which while better than the new one I was just getting ready to change to the Basic plan in order to make the best use of the power I'm banking.

[SunEagle]

Getting back on topic...


With the recent overall SRP rate increase and a new "demand" fee applied only to residential on-site generation customers, SRP also now forces all customers with on-site generation into a single TOU plan (E-27). If you go solar now with SRP you don't have to worry about what price plan to choose.

I am lucky that I was grandfathered with my older install. I'm pretty sure I'm locked into my old TOU plan now for 20 years which while better than the new one I was just getting ready to change to the Basic plan in order to make the best use of the power I'm banking.

Looks like you got lucky. I hope it works out for you and the politics doesn't force a change in the SRP rate sometime in the future.

[deputybubba]

Getting back on topic...


With the recent overall SRP rate increase and a new "demand" fee applied only to residential on-site generation customers, SRP also now forces all customers with on-site generation into a single TOU plan (E-27). If you go solar now with SRP you don't have to worry about what price plan to choose.

I am lucky that I was grandfathered with my older install. I'm pretty sure I'm locked into my old TOU plan now for 20 years which while better than the new one I was just getting ready to change to the Basic plan in order to make the best use of the power I'm banking.

Dave I just started producing and picked the 3 - 6 TOU rate. Is this the one you were going to change from ?
Can I ask why ?
I thought that plan would allow solar to provide power during the on-peak rate time and any other power I used would then be on the off-peak.

Thanks for any info.