We Need a German Plan

[TomP]

I Was amazed this summer when I read that Germany had hit a high of 78 or 82% green production for one day. I did not totally believe the story. Weeks later I was working on a project and talked to an older solar engineer, after a brief trading of personal history we realized we had crossed path 20 yeas ago, I then asked him about the very high green power percentage that Germany had attained and he said it was in fact a reality, reading this article today reinforces that opinion. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...ills_solar_gas

I have almost completed a 18 month effort to modernized my ancient wore out system, still wondering what the folks at the Dumpster thought when they found huge pile of Arco panels. Three days ago we harvested 16.6 KW, and that was only because we had electric space heaters running, what an amazing day that was.

[SunEagle]

I Was amazed this summer when I read that Germany had hit a high of 78 or 82% green production for one day. I did not totally believe the story. Weeks later I was working on a project and talked to an older solar engineer, after a brief trading of personal history we realized we had crossed path 20 yeas ago, I then asked him about the very high green power percentage that Germany had attained and he said it was in fact a reality, reading this article today reinforces that opinion. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...ills_solar_gas

I have almost completed a 18 month effort to modernized my ancient wore out system, still wondering what the folks at the Dumpster thought when they found huge pile of Arco panels. Three days ago we harvested 16.6 KW, and that was only because we had electric space heaters running, what an amazing day that was.

Tom

I fully support the use of solar power generation. But there is a lot of have truths out there concerning who has been successful and who has not by increasing their RE type generation and how much of that is really Green.

While Germany may have installed a lot of RE generation they are not really going down the Green path. Some of the news coming out of Germany is that they are now increasing their use of coal fired electric plants due to the reduction of its Nuclear generation and the high cost of importing power from other countries when their Renewable solar generation stops at night?

Seems a little contradictory to burn more coal because they want to be Green.

[Sunking]

Nucking Futs. Is that enough German?

What you and most of the public are clueless about is Daily Usage and Demand. Bet you any amount of money you do not know the difference between the two. That is why you are being played as a fool.

[TomP]

Tom

I fully support the use of solar power generation. But there is a lot of have truths out there concerning who has been successful and who has not by increasing their RE type generation and how much of that is really Green.

While Germany may have installed a lot of RE generation they are not really going down the Green path. Some of the news coming out of Germany is that they are now increasing their use of coal fired electric plants due to the reduction of its Nuclear generation and the high cost of importing power from other countries when their Renewable solar generation stops at night?

Seems a little contradictory to burn more coal because they want to be Green.

I re-read the article, and it read "70% renewable energy". Also in Paragraph 15 is mention of a 7.8 billion € offset of oil and coal and gas that was not bought, and influx of some 22 Billion € into local coffers. I can not debate the issue, I can only read and take the article as at it's face value, if it is hyperbole, then someone that knows a whole lot more than what Sunking think he does, would come out and take it down.

[TomP]

Nucking Futs. Is that enough German?

What you and most of the public are clueless about is Daily Usage and Demand. Bet you any amount of money you do not know the difference between the two. That is why you are being played as a fool.

I knew I could count on you to opine Sunking. Without a doubt you would find a way to #itch about winning the powerball lottery.

[SunEagle]

I re-read the article, and it read "70% renewable energy". Also in Paragraph 15 is mention of a 7.8 billion € offset of oil and coal and gas that was not bought, and influx of some 22 Billion € into local coffers. I can not debate the issue, I can only read and take the article as at it's face value, if it is hyperbole, then someone that knows a whole lot more than what Sunking think he does, would come out and take it down.

What you read is one article. There are many more out there that are being presented by Renewable Energy Magazines and websites that are non biased.

Like I said I am all for solar and renewable but there is a point when you need a 24/7 source of power and as of now renewable does not meet the bill. Sure you can generate on any particular day 3/4 or more of you electric needs using RE but that will be during a relatively small time frame during that 24 hour period.

It comes down to common sense. RE is a variable power supply and most 1st world countries are a continuous users of electrical power. You have to get the power from somewhere and most comes from fossil fuel burning power plants.

[TomP]

It goes without saying that you need nighttime/base production, but anything we can do to reduce carbon emission is a plus. Now don't get me wrong I know my off grid life is not saving any resources today. We might have thought it would when we started this journey in 1983, but we are more aware of the realities today. Germany is doing something right, we will juts have to wait and revisit Germany efforts in a few years. Meanwhile here in Ga, we have two massive solar arrays being planned/built, one is at the massive Ga power plant Scheer. I do believe the US is way behind the game, and other countries are moving forward, a friend in Australia let me know that is is most common place that most houses have a grid tie system, just today he sent me pics of flowers around his home and there were many homes in view with roof panels.

[russ]

It goes without saying that you need nighttime/base production, but anything we can do to reduce carbon emission is a plus. Now don't get me wrong I know my off grid life is not saving any resources today. We might have thought it would when we started this journey in 1983, but we are more aware of the realities today. Germany is doing something right, we will juts have to wait and revisit Germany efforts in a few years. Meanwhile here in Ga, we have two massive solar arrays being planned/built, one is at the massive Ga power plant Scheer. I do believe the US is way behind the game, and other countries are moving forward, a friend in Australia let me know that is is most common place that most houses have a grid tie system, just today he sent me pics of flowers around his home and there were many homes in view with roof panels.

A lot of bull in a short paragraph. Solar provides less than 1% of total power generated in the US. In Germany someone cooked up how to use the statistics to make a pig look good - I remember when that "factoid" came out.

Check what those so called "massive solar arrays" produce annually - not much.

[TomP]

A lot of bull in a short paragraph. Solar provides less than 1% of total power generated in the US. In Germany someone cooked up how to use the statistics to make a pig look good - I remember when that "factoid" came out.

Check what those so called "massive solar arrays" produce annually - not much.

I guess for some, a little bit of good is VERY VERY bad, and totally unworthy of discussion.

[russ]

I guess for some, a little bit of good is VERY VERY bad, and totally unworthy of discussion.

To discuss is fine - people just should not be under the impression that they are saving the world nor that RE is the solution to the energy supply problem - it isn't.

[peakbagger]

The german plan was a massive wealth switch from consumers to big businesses. The reason so much solar went in is the government over subsidized it turning it a guaranteed investment vehicle with a high rate of return. Business and banks jumped in the game and locked in the subsidies while the consumers who may not have practical access to solar got stuck paying the subsidies. The government has been having a hangover ever since as the retail consumers will vote the government out of office if they let the full impact of the solar subsidies get billed to them.

Sure I support solar but the German plan is not the way to go

[Sunking]

Tom what you and 99% of the public fail to understand is the difference between DEMAND and USAGE. They are two completely different animals.

On the user or customer side all you care and know about is your usage, or how many Kwh you use in a day. Sure you can build a system on your rooftop that over a period of time like a year will Net Zero, but that is only a paper application which has nothing to do with your Demand.

Utilities have to meet your DEMAND like when those clouds pass over, at night, or when your production falls short demand for more power. You DEMAND Power right there and then on the spot 24 hours, 7 days a week, 52 weeks per year. The utility has to have that generation capacity hot and ready to go in a milli-second notice. That is why for every watt of RE that is installed and online, you must have a conventional watt on standby ready to to replace it in a blink of an eye. Net effect you double the cost and do not offset any emissions. You increase emissions and waste resources duplicating with RE. That is what the utilities, scientist, and engineers know. The public is clueless and brainwashed being taken for a ride to be slaughtered like sheep when they reach their destination. Those sheep are starting to wake up and fight back.

Look at California who used the German model. Before they decided to go green a Kwh cost was around 9-cents and CA imported roughly 11% of their power from neighboring states. 15 to years later today they import 35% of their power and pay 100% more. CA is now enslaved by their neighboring states.

[sensij]

Look at California who used the German model. Before they decided to go green a Kwh cost was around 9-cents and CA imported roughly 11% of their power from neighboring states. 15 to years later today they import 35% of their power and pay 100% more. CA is now enslaved by their neighboring states.

You are letting your politics undermine an otherwise valid point. Residential average in 1999 was $0.1064 / kWh. Overall average was $0.0865 / kWh. Residential is now $0.1625 / kWh, and overall is $0.1499 / kWh.

Some might hold Texas up to be a shining example of all that is right with the world. Texas current residential rates average $0.1172 / kWh, and $0.0898 / KWh overall. In 1999, residential Texas was $0.0755 / kWh, and overall was $0.0604 / kWh.

On an average annual percentage basis, those increases work out to
CA Residential: 2.86%
CA Total: 3.73%
TX Residential: 2.98%
TX Total: 2.68%

Not so bad to live in California, a little more painful to do business here. No signs of enslavement that I can see, or support for the idea that RE policy is responsible for escalating rates.

[russ]

Not so bad to live in California, a little more painful to do business here. No signs of enslavement that I can see, or support for the idea that RE policy is responsible for escalating rates.

Santa Claus pays for RE? Or just the poor customers that are too dumb to complain?

[sensij]

Santa Claus pays for RE? Or just the poor customers that are too dumb to complain?

No, of course there is a cost, and some pay more than others. My point is that whatever the cost is, it doesn't appear to be enough to escalate residential electric rates faster than a state like Texas over the time period suggested, and even the commercial/industrial rates, while rising more rapidly, aren't blowing out.

Edit: Please don't take this as support for the German model of RE policy. Just support for using data instead of rhetoric to explain why it is flawed.