Price paid per watt

[Eleceng1979]

As usual a person who didn't read the original post commented on my comment. Please read the original question and my comment and quit taking my post out of context. The question was...Question #2: Should conduit be inside the attic?

c. PVC is not approved for installation in locations subjected to direct sunlight. This is the comment from the majority of the AHJ'S in the usa with a good solar code amendment. Technically you are correct the NEC doesn't require it, but it is a minimum code.

PVC does not belong on a roof in my opinion, many AHJ's opinions and despite proper ratings for such usage will deteriorate over time and look like $hit and will crack, bend, bow, etc... If you want to pick a fight about pvc and sunlight go talk to Mike Holt about it. The NEC also says you need more than one ground rod too for solar...

If you want to help this thread and answer questions than respond to this one. If you want to pick a fight with me over code compliance start a new thread. What I can tell you is my install passed 100% first time with a poco inspector, a local inspector, and a state inspector looking at it all at the same time. How about yours? THE NEC IS A MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.

This crap is why I have requested my account to be deleted....arm chair quarterbacks that have never been electricians, lecturing electricians on their iphone, all while sipping their Starbucks, while looking at their shaded sunpower panels feeling good about saving the planet while commuting to work in their 3 ton suv...i digress.

If anybody reads this crap, flag my post and get my account deleted...this place is like the hotel California. ..i have requested my account to be removed twice... if i post a sales link i get banned, if I'm stupid and post BS I'm stuck forever...WTF?

[inetdog]

Well, Eleceng1979,

Us lowly moderators can only ban you. It would take an Admin to actually delete your account. And your posts would remain.

PS: The forum is, IMHO, quite congenial if you stick around and have a thick skin.

[entgegnen]

Hey Eleceng1979:

1. Thanks for your earlier response! I am just an end-consumer preparing for a solar install in a couple weeks. Answers such as yours help me evaluate whether my particular contractor is doing the "bare minimum" or doing a truly "professional" job. (Yes, as a consumer and the guy who writes the check paying for the product/service I personally see a difference between doing the bare minimum, or the minimum in accordance with code, or actually doing something that is above grade - that is what I label doing a "professional" job.)

2. Your comments about fading/cracking and the NEC is a good bit of information for a consumer like me. It gives me a chance to ask my contractor what he will be using, and if it seems "bare minimum" it will give me a chance to challenge the choice or materials, and demand something different.

3. Don't let the nay-sayers and trolls upset you. I did a while back. It wasn't worth it. Who knows why they write what they do - they may not even intend to be upsetting people or realize how they come across. You cannot control them. It is a waste of energy to try. No pun intended. Fortunately, 90-95% of the folks here are really helpful.

As messy as it often can be, even the back and forth nit-picking still helps folks like me that are watching from the sidelines... as long as you trust consumers to tell the difference between good advice/points/observations and snark.

[foo1bar]

As usual a person who didn't read the original post commented on my comment. Please read the original question and my comment and quit taking my post out of context. The question was...Question #2: Should conduit be inside the attic?

And if you had stated your response to the question asked and not said that metal conduit was required above the roof, I would not have replied.
But you stated (or at least strongly implied) that metal conduit is required on the roof, and NEC does not require it.

c. PVC is not approved for installation in locations subjected to direct sunlight. This is the comment from the majority of the AHJ'S in the usa with a good solar code amendment. Technically you are correct the NEC doesn't require it, but it is a minimum code.

It's used in many commercial installations on top of flat roofs for regular building wiring.
There may be locations where AHJ's have said it's not allowed - but that would be a local rule.
otherwise it generally IS approved for installation in direct sunlight. (I think most/all current PVC conduit available has UV inhibitors - if there's some that doesn't it'd probably be marked "underground only" or something and wouldn't be approved for direct sunlight.)

PVC does not belong on a roof in my opinion,

I have no argument with that.
I even agree with it.
But that is a personal opinion, and not a NEC requirement.

THE NEC IS A MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.

Yes - and that's why I was pointing out that it doesn't actually require what you said it does.
Even though it might be a best practice.

arm chair quarterbacks that have never been electricians, lecturing electricians on their iphone, all while sipping their Starbucks, while looking at their shaded sunpower panels feeling good about saving the planet while commuting to work in their 3 ton suv...i digress.

can't be talking about me, since I have never had an iphone, hate coffee, didn't use Sunpower, and don't have a large SUV.
(And are you an electrician or an Electrical Engineer? I assumed like me you are an engineer, and not an electrician based on your username.)

[DaveDE2]

13kW diy system on shop building:

$18,392
$1.41/w before any incentives.

51ea Phono Solar 255w panels at $0.59/w (ACO solar)

Iron ridge racking at $0.23/w (Ressupply)

SMA Sunny Boy 6.0 inverters (2ea) at $0.29/w (The Power Store)

Misc @ $0.30/w: Structural analysis, Soladeck, SMA Rapid shutdown (2ea), permit fees, NEC 2014 manual, POCO new meter and connect fee, wire and connectors, AC disconnect, line side tap materials, PV labels, conduit, inverter cooling fans, tools, three high school students helped for panel installation labor @ $15/hr, etc.

System commissioned a few weeks ago. So far generating about 80kWhrs/day when it's not cloudy.

Photo taken by son's UAV:

[DaveDE2]

Thanks entegnen.
It turned out nice but it took 7 months from when I first got the idea of doing it and countless hours of understanding how to do the system - listening to people on this forum; finding deals on equipment; reading the NEC; sizing the system; panel and wire calculations, deciding whether I needed a re-roof, SAM simulations, a dozen trips to Home Depot, conduit bending, dealing with the AHJ, etc, etc. In the end, the most difficult part was installing the racking and getting the panels on the roof.

If I ever have to do it again, I will because it will be a relative snap next time and there really isn't much to it hardware-wise but doing it yourself the first time doesn't really save any money if you value your time unless you are doing it as a hobby, such as in my case. It's a labor of love. At first I thought installers really didn't deserve the added cost but I do now.

As far as hosing the panels off, I'm already past worrying about eeking every last joule out of the system. It is what it is as they say and I'll take what ever seasonal conditions bring. Good luck with your system!

[solardreamer]

Nice looking system. Do you have a rough idea of how many person-days (including the high school students) were put in over the 7 months?

[DaveDE2]

@solardreamer
It's difficult but the three high schoolers were thrilled to do the job, and they did it very well.

- High school student labor (for the heavy lifting) was 40 hrs total (for all three), cost me $600.
- I'd guess my own actual labor was maybe 1 hr per day on average, or about 210 hrs overall (very conservative, probably actually half of that).

...but I spent a lot of time on pveducation.org (a Great site, if you haven't been there yet Go there!) and I am not counting that, as well as not counting time spent this forum.

So maybe it doesn't take as much effort as the 7 month number suggests but if you do it yourself you need to keep a good attitude throughout and see it all the way through to the finish!

[SunEagle]

13kW diy system on shop building:

$18,392
$1.41/w before any incentives.

51ea Phono Solar 255w panels at $0.59/w (ACO solar)

Iron ridge racking at $0.23/w (Ressupply)

SMA Sunny Boy 6.0 inverters (2ea) at $0.29/w (The Power Store)

Misc @ $0.30/w: Structural analysis, Soladeck, SMA Rapid shutdown (2ea), permit fees, NEC 2014 manual, POCO new meter and connect fee, wire and connectors, AC disconnect, line side tap materials, PV labels, conduit, inverter cooling fans, tools, three high school students helped for panel installation labor @ $15/hr, etc.

System commissioned a few weeks ago. So far generating about 80kWhrs/day when it's not cloudy.

Photo taken by son's UAV:

Nice system. I hope that shade in the lower left corner is late in the day. Otherwise a pretty clean system. Keep us up to speed on how it performs.

[DaveDE2]

Yes, photo was taken late in the day, 5pm or so. Shade comes in from a big pine tree on the west. It gradually creeps left to right (W to E). I tried to maximize output by configuring the four strings so that they are diced up into four blocks from east to west. I'm losing about 2-4% due to shading. Optimizers might have cut that down by 1% or so but I'm happy so far. My only slight regret is that I didn't put the Soladeck under a panel (you can see it on the left in the picture) for aesthetic reasons but no big deal. What I'm surprised at is *soiling* loss. Those big pine trees emit a lot of pollen and cover the panels with a film. I'm sure I'm losing 2-5% output or so from that. Hoping for rain to clean them off.

[jgd108]

Hey Eleceng1979:

1. Thanks for your earlier response! I am just an end-consumer preparing for a solar install in a couple weeks. Answers such as yours help me evaluate whether my particular contractor is doing the "bare minimum" or doing a truly "professional" job. (Yes, as a consumer and the guy who writes the check paying for the product/service I personally see a difference between doing the bare minimum, or the minimum in accordance with code, or actually doing something that is above grade - that is what I label doing a "professional" job.)

2. Your comments about fading/cracking and the NEC is a good bit of information for a consumer like me. It gives me a chance to ask my contractor what he will be using, and if it seems "bare minimum" it will give me a chance to challenge the choice or materials, and demand something different.

3. Don't let the nay-sayers and trolls upset you. I did a while back. It wasn't worth it. Who knows why they write what they do - they may not even intend to be upsetting people or realize how they come across. You cannot control them. It is a waste of energy to try. No pun intended. Fortunately, 90-95% of the folks here are really helpful.

As messy as it often can be, even the back and forth nit-picking still helps folks like me that are watching from the sidelines... as long as you trust consumers to tell the difference between good advice/points/observations and snark.

entgegnen not sure how to PM you (tried everything) but was curious since you are in SoCal which installer you chose to go with? I saw in other posts you were aroud the $3 / W mark, the best I can do for now is 3.8 /W thanks! I've turned on private messages if it helps.

[entgegnen]

I just turned on my private messaging... although I must admit I do not fully see how I initiate a PM... but feel free to PM if you still want info.

[jgd108]

thanks entgenen. i accepted your follow too but nowhere to write PMs. I saw on other posts moderators saying they have removed PMs and that it's fine to give quotes and installer details, as long as there's no hyperlinking to their websites.

[entgegnen]

My install is this up coming week. I'll be up there fiddling around like a nosey homeowner as they do it .... if I like what I see when it is all said and done, I will pass along their info.

Hey jgd108. RePower by Solar Universe (909) area code.

[bcroe]

13kW diy system on shop building:

$18,392
$1.41/w before any incentives.

51ea Phono Solar 255w panels at $0.59/w (ACO solar)

Iron ridge racking at $0.23/w (Ressupply)

SMA Sunny Boy 6.0 inverters (2ea) at $0.29/w (The Power Store)

Misc @ $0.30/w: Structural analysis, Soladeck, SMA Rapid shutdown (2ea), permit fees, NEC 2014 manual, POCO new meter and connect fee, wire and connectors, AC disconnect, line side tap materials, PV labels, conduit, inverter cooling fans, tools, three high school students helped for panel installation labor @ $15/hr, etc.

System commissioned a few weeks ago. So far generating about 80kWhrs/day when it's not cloudy.

It looks great! 7 months and getting it right sure beats 1 month and screwing it up. We all take a hit when its cloudy. Bruce Roe

[monroe]

$3.04/Watt before credits. NJ
7.56 kW DC, LG 315W, Solar Edge 7600A, P320 optimizer, Black Unirac, Zigbee wireless, and aesthetic package
20 year warranty on Inverter, 25 years panel and optimizer, 10 year rails
10 year installation warranty including part and labor, including issues caused directly by the installation, degradation of more that 10% from original rated O/P
5 year system inspection and checks

[stoecs]

Can I ask who did your system? Also located in NJ and looking into doing a 10Kw system. Have gotten a few quotes so far in the 3.05-350 per watt range. Thanks!

[hr8]

In Bay Area, CA
5.4 KW system at $3.15/W installed before rebates/incentives.
LG 300W Mono Black Panels
SE Optimizers & 5KW inverter
Turnkey Installer with warranty (Referred by family)

[acf]

which company?

[kommong2]

In New Jersey (NJ)

9.3 KW system at $3.01/W installed before rebates this week
LG300N1K-G4(Neon 2 all black panles for better aesthetics look) with 25 year warranty
Enphase sw280 microinverters with 25 year warranty
Enphase Envoy S Monitoring system
10 year Labor warranty from local NJ installer
total cost about 28k
I could have gone cheaper if I had picked solaredge panels and Optimizers instead of microinverters but I am glad to have even better system installed at a reasonable price. Let's hope SREC prices in NJ stay high.

[huge]

13kW diy system on shop building:

$18,392
$1.41/w before any incentives.

51ea Phono Solar 255w panels at $0.59/w (ACO solar)

Iron ridge racking at $0.23/w (Ressupply)

SMA Sunny Boy 6.0 inverters (2ea) at $0.29/w (The Power Store)

Misc @ $0.30/w: Structural analysis, Soladeck, SMA Rapid shutdown (2ea), permit fees, NEC 2014 manual, POCO new meter and connect fee, wire and connectors, AC disconnect, line side tap materials, PV labels, conduit, inverter cooling fans, tools, three high school students helped for panel installation labor @ $15/hr, etc.

System commissioned a few weeks ago. So far generating about 80kWhrs/day when it's not cloudy.

Photo taken by son's UAV:

This makes me wonder if SMA is actually better for shade free set ups. That seems like a high output per kw

[J.P.M.]

This makes me wonder if SMA is actually better for shade free set ups. That seems like a high output per kw

Depending on orientation, that 80/13 seems to be a reasonable # to me, particularly for CO, with perhaps a higher elevation. I'm at ~ 1,400 ft. above mean sea level and I do about 6.3 - 6.5 kWh/ day per kW per "clear" day that time of year after about 3% late afternoon shading on an orientation of 195.75 deg. azimuth, 18.75 deg. tilt. Check PVOutput for CO systems.

SMA is good stuff, but most decent string inverters run pretty close in efficiency one to another, probably within 1 % or so.

[huge]

What are your thoughts on SMA vs solaredge? Assuming shade free set up. My installer seems to think solaredge is easier to design /set up

[Bmt22]

I like solaredge.

[J.P.M.]

What are your thoughts on SMA vs solaredge? Assuming shade free set up. My installer seems to think solaredge is easier to design /set up

I've no serious experience with Solar edge and my experience with SMA is limited to observing SMA products are built like tanks and don't seem to fail much, if at all, at least the ones' I'm familiar with.

Opinions from serious and ethical vendors/installers on this forum seem to be a bit divergent as to which might be "better". My engineering judgment generally suggests I'd keep systems as simple as possible and electronics in user controlled environments (for example, indoors/garage) as much as possible/practical, which usually means not on a roof and string inverters. But, I'd defer to those installers/vendors and their greater experience and knowledge in the area of the possible differences in the fit for purposeness of either product.