WE Energies to Squash Distributed Renewables with their latest rate case.

[DanS26]

You might try buying a UL listed heater coil - easy. You wouldn't have to be handy for this one - you just don't realize or want to admit how simple it is.

Well russ I opened up the box to see how easy it would be to replicate this thing. Two boards in there, lots of safety devices, over current and over heating plus anti tip devices. Outside temp sensor to control charge percentage. A remote indoor temperature sensor and special variable speed blower. Those bricks look like something on the Space Shuttle. Special insulation that I hope is not asbestos. A timer board with chips to control timing of all functions. Touch control screen.......and a lot more.

If this is easy to replicate, please don't tell my wife about my special innate electrical abilities. She will want me to rebuild or build all kinds of electrical appliances in our house.

[russ]

Well russ I opened up the box to see how easy it would be to replicate this thing. Two boards in there, lots of safety devices, over current and over heating plus anti tip devices. Outside temp sensor to control charge percentage. A remote indoor temperature sensor and special variable speed blower. Those bricks look like something on the Space Shuttle. Special insulation that I hope is not asbestos. A timer board with chips to control timing of all functions. Touch control screen.......and a lot more.

If this is easy to replicate, please don't tell my wife about my special innate electrical abilities. She will want me to rebuild or build all kinds of electrical appliances in our house.

Lots of bells and whistles! Does it make tea as well? Your money but how much of that is necessary? You will learn over time.

I like the concept for using the extra kW.

[kwilcox]

So the squeaky wheel gets some grease.

Looks like some of your activity got their attention and maybe a good resolution for you.

Thanks, but the bigger picture here really isn't about me. Its about changing the model to support DER. I've got some ideas playing off the "we use the grid as a big battery" thought. We should be charged by how much we store/and for what length of time. That would be fair to everybody. I just have to work out the details in my mind.

Then, I'll adjust my speech to the PSC and have a chat with customer service...

[SunEagle]

Thanks, but the bigger picture here really isn't about me. Its about changing the model to support DER. I've got some ideas playing off the "we use the grid as a big battery" thought. We should be charged by how much we store/and for what length of time. That would be fair to everybody. I just have to work out the details in my mind.

Then, I'll adjust my speech to the PSC and have a chat with customer service...

Sounds like a plan.

I think it would have been easier if the Utility had broken out the cost structure for individual things like; real generation costs (including fuel), transmission costs, meter reading costs, grid maintenance cost, power plant maintenance cost, taxes, etc. Then maybe a better $/kWh could have been determined on what the Utility actually saves when you generate power instead of them generating power. That would be the amount they would credit you for.

Right now most of those costs are lumped into a $/kWh for each kWh used so people expect the same credit amount for each kWh they generate even though that amount includes on going maintenance costs for the Utility.

Maybe this is too simplistic thinking on my part but somehow we need to get the Utility to agree that small generating systems can help their bottom line instead of their thinking they are losing all that revenue to keep their system running.

[Ian S]

Thanks, but the bigger picture here really isn't about me. Its about changing the model to support DER. I've got some ideas playing off the "we use the grid as a big battery" thought. We should be charged by how much we store/and for what length of time. That would be fair to everybody. I just have to work out the details in my mind.

Then, I'll adjust my speech to the PSC and have a chat with customer service...

I've suggested this before: I think that would be a fair approach as it gets around the p!ssing contest as to how good or bad rooftop solar is for the grid and focuses in on the key way GT solar benefits from using the grid for storage. It would also be a fair way to differentiate GT customers who use most of their generation on site vs those who send more to the grid for storage.

[russ]

Maybe this is too simplistic thinking on my part but somehow we need to get the Utility to agree that small generating systems can help their bottom line instead of their thinking they are losing all that revenue to keep their system running.

You mean rather than just being a nuisance - which it is.

[SunEagle]

You mean rather than just being a nuisance - which it is.

I don't disagree that some Utilities (or maybe most) feel that solar is a PIA to them since it has been forced down their throats by state governments and they are losing some profits. At some point the people in control of electrical generation may need to loosen up a little and do a little giving instead of all take. Look what happened with MA Bell and the telephone industry. It could happen to the Electric Utilities. Better to give in a little then to be broken up. No one likes monopolies.

I still believe RE (wind & solar) should be part of the overall portfolio of electric generation in this country. Who controls it and how it is used seems to be the current battle. I hope that there is a middle ground where all can get a piece (or sliver) of the pie.

[J.P.M.]

I don't disagree that some Utilities (or maybe most) feel that solar is a PIA to them since it has been forced down their throats by state governments and they are losing some profits. At some point the people in control of electrical generation may need to loosen up a little and do a little giving instead of all take. Look what happened with MA Bell and the telephone industry. It could happen to the Electric Utilities. Better to give in a little then to be broken up. No one likes monopolies.

I still believe RE (wind & solar) should be part of the overall portfolio of electric generation in this country. Who controls it and how it is used seems to be the current battle. I hope that there is a middle ground where all can get a piece (or sliver) of the pie.

Aside from revenue issues for a moment, part of the challenge POCO's have with distributed, non steady generation is that not only is it mostly not controllable, it's also unpredictable. That raises all kinds of problems in keeping the grid steady, reliable and workable. Most of us only see it from our side. I'm not a big fan of POCOs, but their job isn't made easier by unpredictable and unreliable inputs. The grid evolved assuming the use of mostly steady and/or controllable sources of power. Along comes solar and wind distributed generation that's the square peg in the round system. The challenge may be adjusting, massaging and accommodating the two somehow into compatibility.

It's easier to say solar sucks because it doesn't fit the existing grid than it is to recognize and meet the challenges of the opportunity. It's also easier to be a pie in the sky dreamer who thinks problems can disappear with the wave of the magic wand of technology and a miracle happens than a hard ass and persistent problem solver who turns dreams into reality.

[SunEagle]

Aside from revenue issues for a moment, part of the challenge POCO's have with distributed, non steady generation is that not only is it mostly not controllable, it's also unpredictable. That raises all kinds of problems in keeping the grid steady, reliable and workable. Most of us only see it from our side. I'm not a big fan of POCOs, but their job isn't made easier by unpredictable and unreliable inputs. The grid evolved assuming the use of mostly steady and/or controllable sources of power. Along comes solar and wind distributed generation that's the square peg in the round system. The challenge may be adjusting, massaging and accommodating the two somehow into compatibility.

It's easier to say solar sucks because it doesn't fit the existing grid than it is to recognize and meet the challenges of the opportunity. It's also easier to be a pie in the sky dreamer who thinks problems can disappear with the wave of the magic wand of technology and a miracle happens than a hard ass and persistent problem solver who turns dreams into reality.

I agree that local "interrupt-able" power generation is a big problem for the POCO and can add costs for maintaining the grid and power plants.

And while I too am not a fan of the POCO, I do understand the issue not only from my power industry background but from friends that have worked in some of the Florida Utilities. It is an expensive juggling act to make sure voltage and frequency are stable or customers get real pissed off.

I also know the we need a % of base generation greater than the % of renewable as well as a better transmission system. All that costs billions which normally comes from the customers but is now being siphoned off by those that have a pv system.

Instead of fighting each other over the control of power generation we should be looking for the formula where home power generation fits into the big picture and the POCO can still look good to their investors.

[foo1bar]

Aside from revenue issues for a moment, part of the challenge POCO's have with distributed, non steady generation is that not only is it mostly not controllable, it's also unpredictable. That raises all kinds of problems in keeping the grid steady, reliable and workable. Most of us only see it from our side. I'm not a big fan of POCOs, but their job isn't made easier by unpredictable and unreliable inputs. The grid evolved assuming the use of mostly steady and/or controllable sources of power. Along comes solar and wind distributed generation that's the square peg in the round system. The challenge may be adjusting, massaging and accommodating the two somehow into compatibility.

It's easier to say solar sucks because it doesn't fit the existing grid than it is to recognize and meet the challenges of the opportunity. It's also easier to be a pie in the sky dreamer who thinks problems can disappear with the wave of the magic wand of technology and a miracle happens than a hard ass and persistent problem solver who turns dreams into reality.

The POCO has been dealing with highly unpredictable and unreliable inputs for decades. There really is no difference in reliability impact between there being an unexpected/unpredictable addtional 10kW motor load being added/removed from the grid and a 10kW power source being added/removed from the grid. In many ways that 10kW of motor is a lot worse for their reliability because motors don't have their current/voltage in sync (a power-factor that's farther away from normal/simple resistive load)

Don't argue "but 8kW motor is really big and they don't have to deal with those much, but a 8kW solar is common" Because it simply isn't true. There are many many dairy farms in Wisconsin, and all of them have refrigeration units that are used to cool the milk. And those refrigeration units are all good sized motors (and jointly they are noticable enough to the POCO that in places the POCO actually has to make plans around them, like switching in/out capacitor banks to handle the power factor when they all kick in about the same time because of the morning milkings)

With power generated from solar/wind being such a small percentage of the total power, it just isn't believable that it's a real significant issue for the POCO yet.
For places where it's getting to be a significant percentage (like some areas of Hawaii are getting to) then it becomes somewhat more reasonable to be concerned about it.

[SunEagle]

The POCO has been dealing with highly unpredictable and unreliable inputs for decades. There really is no difference in reliability impact between there being an unexpected/unpredictable addtional 10kW motor load being added/removed from the grid and a 10kW power source being added/removed from the grid. In many ways that 10kW of motor is a lot worse for their reliability because motors don't have their current/voltage in sync (a power-factor that's farther away from normal/simple resistive load)

Don't argue "but 8kW motor is really big and they don't have to deal with those much, but a 8kW solar is common" Because it simply isn't true. There are many many dairy farms in Wisconsin, and all of them have refrigeration units that are used to cool the milk. And those refrigeration units are all good sized motors (and jointly they are noticable enough to the POCO that in places the POCO actually has to make plans around them, like switching in/out capacitor banks to handle the power factor when they all kick in about the same time because of the morning milkings)

With power generated from solar/wind being such a small percentage of the total power, it just isn't believable that it's a real significant issue for the POCO yet.
For places where it's getting to be a significant percentage (like some areas of Hawaii are getting to) then it becomes somewhat more reasonable to be concerned about it.

When you look at all of the small home grid tie systems I would agree with you that a couple of 6kw systems turning on and off should easily be absorbed by the grid but maybe not.

I can tell you that there are some pretty big systems out there that do affect the grid. I worked on a system in Nevada that was a 1MW solar farm at a high school. They had two 500kwatt inverters that had program issues concerning phase angle sensing and they would trip off line for 5 minutes and then come back only to have one or both trip off again. Let me tell you the grid in that area did not like a mega watt of power coming and going a couple of times in less than an hour. I was able to find the issue and got the inverters reprogrammed to be less sensitive.

The thing is until a private system is properly set up there is a chance that multiple on / off cycles of even small generating systems can affect the grid in the immediate area. When you multiple the number of generating points in the same neighborhood (like in California and Hawaii) all kinds of quality issues can be transmitted up and down the grid causing other power issues. So there has to be a balance and understanding between all power generating sources.

[russ]

Don't argue "but 8kW motor is really big

An 8 kW motor is really small - 8 mW is on the big side.

What you are not understanding is a region can be affected at one time - clouds come in or the wind stops.

Zip, zero, nada to do with your 10 kW system or 8 kW motor.

[foo1bar]

An 8 kW motor is really small - 8 mW is on the big side.

What you are not understanding is a region can be affected at one time - clouds come in or the wind stops.

Zip, zero, nada to do with your 10 kW system or 8 kW motor.

Sure clouds come in - and they effectively turn off the solar systems one by one, neighborhoood by neighborhood.

What you don't seem to understand is that the same sort of thing happens every day on the load side.

Many farmers in an area will start their morning milking within an hour of each other, which winds up being very similar in lots of smallish loads suddenly drawing from the grid.
In addition you have the manufacturing plants that will start everything up in the morning.

[Sunking]

Aside from revenue issues for a moment, part of the challenge POCO's have with distributed, non steady generation is that not only is it mostly not controllable, it's also unpredictable. That raises all kinds of problems in keeping the grid steady, reliable and workable.

Ding ding ding. Winner winner chicken dinner. This is where the public has been brainwashed. For every watt of of RE out there must be a conventional generation watt standing by ready to replace it on a moments notice. What does that mean? You have no carbon emission offset or added capacity, exact opposite is true, you generate more emissions, and pay for it twice without a capacity gain. Now the Greens will scream bloody murder and try to convince you that is not true because they do not want the public to know the truth. Either that or they drank the Kool Aide and just ignorant and don't want to know the facts.

So if you were a biz trying to make a living why on earth would you sell your product for the same price it cost you to make? Basically the public has not given the utility a choice. Co-Generation exist by private companies called Peaker Plants, and th eenergy generated is sold on the open market by Bid/Ask process. Co-generators Ask for say $50/Mwh, and utilities bid $49 to $50, highest bidder and users win the bid. With solar they are forced to pay $110 or higher. No money to be made and losses are passed onto the customer. That is just stupid policy.

[kwilcox]

For every watt of of RE out there must be a conventional generation watt standing by ready to replace it on a moments notice. What does that mean? You have no carbon emission offset or added capacity, exact opposite is true, you generate more emissions...

Agree with the first sentence but the rest doesn't' make sense to me. Turning your sentence around: That same watt would be running 7X24 if there wasn't an RE watt to back it (and for PV based RE this is during peak demand times). Are you saying that standby generation + RE for 1 watt pollutes more then would baseline generation producing that entire watt?