WE Energies to Squash Distributed Renewables with their latest rate case.

[kwilcox]

...Perhaps energy storage could be another chance for the utilities to get out in front of an issue after standing around with their thumbs in their collective butt and letting rooftop solar get away from them. Nice foresight on that one.

Concur. Large scale energy storage is a core component of a grid that can autonomously leverage DER. I'm not talking COG DER here either (although it would remove even the $11/mWh a utility spends in return for great PR). Large scale storage facilities could cost billions but the utilities are used to that. This is also a long term path towards protecting their investors because it allows a new component of the generation fleet with essentially zero fuel costs to be added to the energy mix.

[J.P.M.]

Concur. Large scale energy storage is a core component of a grid that can autonomously leverage DER. I'm not talking COG DER here either (although it would remove even the $11/mWh a utility spends in return for great PR). Large scale storage facilities could cost billions but the utilities are used to that. This is also a long term path towards protecting their investors because it allows a new component of the generation fleet with essentially zero fuel costs to be added to the energy mix.

I did not mean to imply it is that simple. For one thing, fuel costs may not be the biggest, or even a big issue as most of the POCO's seem to want to infer by bitching about how the "solar freeloaders" are not paying their fair share of somewhat fixed infrastructure build and maintenance costs (billions or not, rate payers will pay for it) rather than flexible fuel costs. Also, when they pay avoided fuel costs at $.045/kWh flat rate for over generation but charge ~$.17 to $.38/kWh to me for the same power, I suspect, they do not want to discuss fuel costs as much as other things.

[russ]

More than likely the energy storage system that does come to market (if ever) will be on the large and expensive side and used by the Utility or Government. The chance of getting something a home can use in a price range that the masses can purchase will still be a long way out.

It would be a big deal for the generators - allowing them to store baseline generation from low demand periods to peak periods.

When something viable is presented to them I expect they will be all over it. The utilities/generators are not the new tech providers - just the consumers.

[kwilcox]

How does the POCO deal with over generation if they can't store the energy? Are there huge heating strips out there?

[inetdog]

How does the POCO deal with over generation if they can't store the energy? Are there huge heating strips out there?

In the very short term, they can raise the delivery voltage (staying within the specification limits) so that non-motor loads will draw more power.
Just as they can reduce the delivery voltage when their generation capacity is strained.

[Sunking]

How does the POCO deal with over generation if they can't store the energy? Are there huge heating strips out there?

Pump Back Lakes

[kwilcox]

Hmmm... I just completed some interesting analysis of my TED data from beginning June to present. What I need is an energy storage system whose normal longest-life state is only partially charged and whose maximum storage capacity is about 300aH @ 48v greater than that. The highest daily net negative I've ever gone is 12.96 kWh.

[kwilcox]

Pump Back Lakes

I take it that this isn't a very efficient storage option.

[inetdog]

I take it that this isn't a very efficient storage option.

Less than 50% recovery. And the turbines to get it back do not spool up all that fast. The momentum of water in the penstocks stores a surprising amount of energy.

[foo1bar]

Less than 50% recovery.

60-80% actually.

http://people.duke.edu/~cy42/PHS.pdf

San Luis reservoir (near me) I believe is >70%. I don't remember for sure how much more - but I do remember it being much more than 50%.

[russ]

I take it that this isn't a very efficient storage option.

The real problem is the volume (or elevation) requirements are a bit fantastic per kWh generated.

[kwilcox]

60-80% actually.

http://people.duke.edu/~cy42/PHS.pdf

San Luis reservoir (near me) I believe is >70%. I don't remember for sure how much more - but I do remember it being much more than 50%.

Thanks for the Duke U. link! The fact that there isn't more PHS would seem to shed some interesting light on the entire concept of large scale energy storage.

[russ]

Thanks for the Duke U. link! The fact that there isn't more PHS would seem to shed some interesting light on the entire concept of large scale energy storage.

What interesting light?

[ChrisOlson]

Hmmm... I just completed some interesting analysis of my TED data from beginning June to present. What I need is an energy storage system whose normal longest-life state is only partially charged and whose maximum storage capacity is about 300aH @ 48v greater than that. The highest daily net negative I've ever gone is 12.96 kWh.

Yes, but you need to go for a whole year to know that. You live in Wisconsin near Lake Michigan and you got the same problem there we got up here by Lake Superior. Fog and overcast in the winter time. These Great Lakes are a giant fog bank and automatic snow maker when you get wind over unfrozen water and it affects solar insolation pretty drastically. Last year there was ice in the harbor in Kenosha when we sailed our yacht south in early November and we had to break ice to leave the harbor when we headed down the Calumet out of Chicago for the Caribbean. But that doesn't happen every year and when that water stays open it evaporates in the winter and the moisture in the air reduces how much you get from your panels.

[kwilcox]

Yes, but you need to go for a whole year to know that. You live in Wisconsin near Lake Michigan and you got the same problem there we got up here by Lake Superior. Fog and overcast in the winter time. These Great Lakes are a giant fog bank and automatic snow maker when you get wind over unfrozen water and it affects solar insolation pretty drastically. Last year there was ice in the harbor in Kenosha when we sailed our yacht south in early November and we had to break ice to leave the harbor when we headed down the Calumet out of Chicago for the Caribbean. But that doesn't happen every year and when that water stays open it evaporates in the winter and the moisture in the air reduces how much you get from your panels.

My thoughts were that my greatest daily excess will be in the summertime. I'll certainly continue the investigation. My full 4KW array hasn't been online over the winter yet.

I have a boat named "Adventurous" btw. She's a Catalina 30 that I sail out of SSYC. Our family has had her as far North as Mackinac Island and pretty much everywhere else on lake Michigan. Not blue water like you but still fun.