WE Energies to Squash Distributed Renewables with their latest rate case.

[Ian S]

Agree with the first sentence but the rest doesn't' make sense to me. Turning your sentence around: That same watt would be running 7X24 if there wasn't an RE watt to back it (and for PV based RE this is during peak demand times). Are you saying that standby generation + RE for 1 watt pollutes more then would baseline generation producing that entire watt?

Yup, that's what he's been saying forever and no, it doesn't make sense.

[SunEagle]

Yup, that's what he's been saying forever and no, it doesn't make sense.

That is because you have to understand the limitations of power generation. You can't start up a generator cold to make up for a drop in generation when the RE stops. If you tried there would be power outages until the fossil fuel generator comes on line. So you have to have that generator running all the time and ready to ramp up. When they run below peak efficiency they use more fuel.

Sure they now have fast starting peaker generators that can add to the grid very quickly. Although that still requires an excess of power being generated when RE is up so it can quickly take up the slack when the RE is lost long enough for the peakers to come on line.

While those peakers are fast they are fuel hogs and consume a lot more than a standard fossil fuel generator running.

So in a sense you have more power being generated when RE is running so it can quickly fill in the void when RE stops. And running that excess generation is costly in fuel and dirty unless it is Nuclear generation.

Something I read a couple days ago about Germany. As they slowly shut down their Nuclear generators they are ramping up their coal fired plants to provide power when their solar panels are not. So here is a country that has gone head of heels with solar pv generation and they are shutting down their non fossil fuel generating plants to run their COAL fired plants.

Sounds Green to me.

[russ]

Agree with the first sentence but the rest doesn't' make sense to me. Turning your sentence around: That same watt would be running 7X24 if there wasn't an RE watt to back it (and for PV based RE this is during peak demand times). Are you saying that standby generation + RE for 1 watt pollutes more then would baseline generation producing that entire watt?

HTF can an interuptible source back up anything? It does not and can not.

[russ]

Yup, that's what he's been saying forever and no, it doesn't make sense.

Ian - that is because you are too busy polishing those green turds to think about it.

[kwilcox]

I'm going to fact check you guys with the person who was in charge of SE WI power plants during the late 90s. He's retired now, but in his day he managed Oak Creek, the Valley plant, and the two Nukes off Point beach. I'm not prepared to believe that a watt shared by RE/peakers on a peak demand day pollutes more than that same watt delivered by conventional generation (pretty much peakers alone) over that same demand period, especially after hearing Dave's stories about the issues they faced during peak demand on hot summer days.

[kwilcox]

That is because you have to understand the limitations of power generation. You can't start up a generator cold to make up for a drop in generation when the RE stops. If you tried there would be power outages until the fossil fuel generator comes on line. So you have to have that generator running all the time and ready to ramp up. When they run below peak efficiency they use more fuel.

Sure they now have fast starting peaker generators that can add to the grid very quickly. Although that still requires an excess of power being generated when RE is up so it can quickly take up the slack when the RE is lost long enough for the peakers to come on line.

While those peakers are fast they are fuel hogs and consume a lot more than a standard fossil fuel generator running.

So in a sense you have more power being generated when RE is running so it can quickly fill in the void when RE stops. And running that excess generation is costly in fuel and dirty unless it is Nuclear generation.

Something I read a couple days ago about Germany. As they slowly shut down their Nuclear generators they are ramping up their coal fired plants to provide power when their solar panels are not. So here is a country that has gone head of heels with solar pv generation and they are shutting down their non fossil fuel generating plants to run their COAL fired plants.

Sounds Green to me.

So you are saying that Germany is polluting more now than they were before they brought all that Solar online? The way I'm reading this thread, according to Sunking/russ, that answer is yes.

[kwilcox]

hmmm... it would appear that an initial glance at the empirical data would back that contention up too. Germany is tossing coal online to make up for the lost nukes and their carbon footprint is up 1.5 - 3% over the last two years.

[russ]

So you are saying that Germany is polluting more now than they were before they brought all that Solar online? The way I'm reading this thread, according to Sunking/russ, that answer is yes.

Of course yes - removing the nukes was a stupid but necessary political move.

[ChrisOlson]

Aside from revenue issues for a moment, part of the challenge POCO's have with distributed, non steady generation is that not only is it mostly not controllable, it's also unpredictable. That raises all kinds of problems in keeping the grid steady, reliable and workable

Distributed generation is the only answer in the long term, whether the utilities want to admit it or not. The grid is not steady, reliable or workable in the long term. Watch this video by Mike Holt that explains the basic problems with stray voltages on your modern grid system. Dairy farmers fought this problem for the last 30 years and the utilities always claimed grounding was the answer. However, we could do a standby generator installation on a large dairy farm and when the generator is running on utility peak load reduction program with the utility neutral disconnected - voila! Stray voltage is gone. It's only in the last 10 years that the problem has become really understood, and yet the utilities still deny it. Except today at large dairies that are multi-million dollar businesses, when there's a stray voltage problem the utility shows up pronto and installs a neutral isolator. So they know what the problem is, but they still won't admit it or fix it on the grid scale:

Just a couple days ago in Michigan a kid got killed on a football field due to a 60 volt stray voltage potential in a chain link fence. It is a widespread problem that is largely swept under the rug by the power utilities:

http://www.zitopartners.com/exclusive-potentially-deadly-electrical-charges-found-on-city-streets

In the end, change is going to have to come one way or another and the utilities are going to fight it tooth and nail. But the system they have set up is prohibitively expensive to maintain in the long term, and it is not safe or reliable. And as it ages, it's going to get worse. The problem today is that people in the electrical utility business will deny it, swearing on a stack of bibles that it isn't so. But those of us who have worked with standby power and distributed generation systems for over 20 years know better.

[kwilcox]

Damn, I love learning new stuff! Mike Holt is one of the best too. Thanks for that great post ChrisOlson!

Let me see if I've got this right as it applies to DER. Right now, on a cool fall morning in WI, my NEV (just measured it) is about .5 volts. It is changing too due to changing demand just as Mike Holt explained. However, on a hot summer afternoon when everybody has their AC cranked up to full and the POCO has all of their Peak generators running flat out, I'd expect my NEV to be much higher because the current flow to the distribution facility is much higher.

Enter my DER PV system. Hot Sunny days means that PV based RE generators are directly offsetting local load so net current to the distribution facility drops, which in turn lowers NEV. I wonder if that drop is dramatic downstream of my local step-down transformer or if it is a result of net DER generation?

[SunEagle]

hmmm... it would appear that an initial glance at the empirical data would back that contention up too. Germany is tossing coal online to make up for the lost nukes and their carbon footprint is up 1.5 - 3% over the last two years.

Thanks for checking and confirming what I posted. It is sad that Germany gets a lot of good press using solar but very little press about increasing thier coal use.

I get a number of emails with news articles covering renewable energy and solar. Funny how a lot of bad press is not made public concerning the issues some areas are having with the increase of solar installations and not upgrading the grid to meet the new "power flow" dynamics.

[russ]

Thanks for checking and confirming what I posted. It is sad that Germany gets a lot of good press using solar but very little press about increasing thier coal use.

I get a number of emails with news articles covering renewable energy and solar. Funny how a lot of bad press is not made public concerning the issues some areas are having with the increase of solar installations and not upgrading the grid to meet the new "power flow" dynamics.

Greens beat the drum for news they think is "suitable".

[J.P.M.]

Greens beat the drum for news they think is "suitable".

It would seem that objectivity without agenda is still in short supply pretty much regardless of persuasion. Perhaps another example of why I suggest questioning everything everyone says ?

[russ]

It would seem that objectivity without agenda is still in short supply pretty much regardless of persuasion. Perhaps another example of why I suggest questioning everything everyone says ?

The "honest broker" is hard to find.

[ChrisOlson]

Enter my DER PV system. Hot Sunny days means that PV based RE generators are directly offsetting local load so net current to the distribution facility drops, which in turn lowers NEV. I wonder if that drop is dramatic downstream of my local step-down transformer or if it is a result of net DER generation?

Part of the problem is balancing three-phase low-voltage distribution systems from the substation when most of the loads are single phase. Unbalanced three-phase distribution results in higher return current on the utility's primary neutral. So while your distributed generation might help reduce the total load on the primary distribution on one phase conductor, it still can't help balance the three-phase load unless there is equal DER on the other two phases (assuming the utility runs a balanced primary). So the voltage drop on the primary neutral follows thru all the way to the end no matter what because they use a wye configured three-phase primary.

In rural parts of the country where wild leg delta three-phase primary distribution is used, this problem doesn't exist because the delta configuration does not have a neutral. Instead, delta systems use a local ground at the transformers on a service drop, with one transformer on each phase. But this is only used in rural areas because wild leg delta systems are 240V at the service drop with L1 at 120V to neutral, L2 at 165-250V to neutral (wild leg), and L3 at 120V to neutral. The reason it is used in rural areas is because the wild leg delta three-phase, three-wire distribution can supply single phase 120/240V (from L1 to L3) without the use of additional stepdown transformers, as well as 240V three-phase on a service drop. The wye systems used in urban areas are 120/208 or 277/480V three-phase four-wire, which requires additional transformers on a three-phase service drop to get normal split-phase power.

There are few wild leg delta three-phase, three-wire distribution systems left in the US. Up here in northern Wisconsin it is all there is where the power lines run. But we're on the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to utility upgrades here, and there's lots of people like us that don't have utility service at all. And the ones that do have it don't trust it because all it takes is for some dark clouds to appear on the horizon and the power goes out. Whether you live off-grid or not, standby generators are a normal part of life here.