Inching closer to fair solar price point in Ontario

[Roland Saul]

Greetings again from a long time lurker. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the viability of going off grid in Ontario. I know I'm not at a price point yet where it's worth it for me to dump the grid, but it just got a LOT closer in Ontario in my opinion.

I currently have a house under renovation right beside a power pole, awaiting re-wiring to re-connect. I will , assuming I remain a POCO customer, receive a smart meter, that I will pay about $45 a month for. That's $45 just for renting the meter.

The way Hydro One works it, my energy usage is only about half of the monthly bill, with "delivery charges", "debt retirement", and the meter charge added to it in such a way that a standard 1600 sq/ foot house with electric stove and fridge, lights, and gas heat/hot water , occupied by a family of 2, would probably run me about $200 dollars even though only about $100 of that would be actual energy charges. Take your energy charge and double it to get your bill, that's the Hydro One way these days...

Hydro One has now announced that their energy charges will now increase by ---> 46% <--- over the next 5 years. That brings me to a conservative estimate of roughly $300 a month just for electricity for a family of two with normal habits. If my energy cost goes up by 46%, and please, other Ontario people correct me if I'm wrong, the other charges will ALSO rise by 46%, as they are directly based on the energy use.

I have been told that re-inspection prior to POCO re-connection, and the actual re-connection regardless of the existing service hardware being in place, will cost me around $3,000.

When it comes to re-connect I'm looking at $3,000 up front and $300 a month ASSUMING that Hydro One rates plateau in 5 years. As if....

Further to that, solar equipment prices are still coming down, and battery tech is still making good gains.

Solar is looking fairly affordable if I'm forced to outlay that amount for power. If I'm going to pay $6,600 my first year of grid, then at LEAST $3600 per year after that, I'm thinking that I have come much closer than ever before to a realistic off grid price point. Re-connection and 5 years of POCO power is gonna run me upwards of 20 grand. 20 grand is some nice solar setup the way I see it. Any other Ontarians out there feel the way I do?

Dew yewww feee-eeeel loike Oi doo-oooo? <-- Obligatory Frampton Reference for you oldsters out there.

[J.P.M.]

Greetings again from a long time lurker. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the viability of going off grid in Ontario. I know I'm not at a price point yet where it's worth it for me to dump the grid, but it just got a LOT closer in Ontario in my opinion.

I currently have a house under renovation right beside a power pole, awaiting re-wiring to re-connect. I will , assuming I remain a POCO customer, receive a smart meter, that I will pay about $45 a month for. That's $45 just for renting the meter.

The way Hydro One works it, my energy usage is only about half of the monthly bill, with "delivery charges", "debt retirement", and the meter charge added to it in such a way that a standard 1600 sq/ foot house with electric stove and fridge, lights, and gas heat/hot water , occupied by a family of 2, would probably run me about $200 dollars even though only about $100 of that would be actual energy charges. Take your energy charge and double it to get your bill, that's the Hydro One way these days...

Hydro One has now announced that their energy charges will now increase by ---> 46% <--- over the next 5 years. That brings me to a conservative estimate of roughly $300 a month just for electricity for a family of two with normal habits. If my energy cost goes up by 46%, and please, other Ontario people correct me if I'm wrong, the other charges will ALSO rise by 46%, as they are directly based on the energy use.

I have been told that re-inspection prior to POCO re-connection, and the actual re-connection regardless of the existing service hardware being in place, will cost me around $3,000.

When it comes to re-connect I'm looking at $3,000 up front and $300 a month ASSUMING that Hydro One rates plateau in 5 years. As if....

Further to that, solar equipment prices are still coming down, and battery tech is still making good gains.

Solar is looking fairly affordable if I'm forced to outlay that amount for power. If I'm going to pay $6,600 my first year of grid, then at LEAST $3600 per year after that, I'm thinking that I have come much closer than ever before to a realistic off grid price point. Re-connection and 5 years of POCO power is gonna run me upwards of 20 grand. 20 grand is some nice solar setup the way I see it. Any other Ontarians out there feel the way I do?

Dew yewww feee-eeeel loike Oi doo-oooo? <-- Obligatory Frampton Reference for you oldsters out there.

Get out EEH !! Where in Ontario ?

[russ]

Get out EEH !! Where in Ontario ?

That is the province with the great solar FIT rates and incentives isn't it? Seems that they figured out the money has to come from somewhere.

[Roland Saul]

This particular house is in southeastern Ontario, near Smith's Falls. A little hamlet called Chantry.

Russ, yes, there is a good FIT program for grid-tied in Ontario. You can get 100% financing and guaranteed good rates for energy for 20 years, which means that a young person with plenty of suitable land can have a fairly guaranteed investment. We don't have the greatest insolation, but barely enough to make it worthwhile IF you go large scale. I wouldn't outlive the payback time for such an investment, but if I was a young landowner near the lines I would not hesitate for one second.

From a personal standpoint, I would love it if the time would come when I could meet or better my grid re-connection price and monthly outlay with a 2kw solar system price, which I could live with consumption-wise. Gas dryer, water heater, and stove would put me just in range in terms of remaining electricity needs. I am willing to pay slightly more for solar electricity than I would for grid, billing wise. I realize that I could never get anywhere close to the pure per-watt price that grid affords, but If I can cut my consumption by about 60%, then it's not at all unrealistic to eke out a solar living knowing that I am part of the solution. Whether that point of affordability comes in my lifetime or not remains to be seen .

Just how much solar setup will $3000 down and $300 a month for ever get me, that is my question, because in 5 years that's what the minimum price will be for me to go on grid anyway . If my net per month price comes anywhere near the price I pay for Hydro One, then I am gone.

I think the price of batteries will determine my choice ultimately.

[bonaire]

Off grid in Ontario is dangerous for winter conditions. You need to plan for six or seven cloudy days straight or have a sizeable generator to condition the batteries when cloudy. Do you want to go green? This is not really green. Are you worried of grid outages? Consider a nice natural gas generator and either a large tank or piped-in gas.

Grid tied is best if you don't mind, hydro is cheap in Ontario and Quebec. The only incentive is the FiT and that is not guaranteed long term. A lease with yearly upcost percentage should be avoided. Any payment plan system is based on borrowed money. This eats into your value. If you can afford it, pay cash. Rarely is financing solar pv a good idea "economically". But if you want to do that rather than invest the money and have faster return on investment, go ahead. You can earn much better returns on money through proper investing. Loans just tie you down to payments. Hydro electricity is already green. Niagara Mowhawk, Sir Adam Beck and other nearby hydro is some of the best in North America.

[inetdog]

Inching closer to fair [???] solar price point in Ontario

Greetings again from a long time lurker. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the viability of going off grid in Ontario. I know I'm not at a price point yet where it's worth it for me to dump the grid, but it just got a LOT closer in Ontario in my opinion.

<rant>
I will not try to dispute your calculations and predictions, nor the conclusions that you draw from them. But I really take issue with the casual use of
"fair" in your thread title.

What you are talking about is grid-tied parity, which is here now, and off-grid parity, which is still a ways down the line, neither of which have any direct relation to fairness.
In fact, to get to off-grid parity (price of solar comparable to POCO (utility) supplied power with current technology you have to put into effect a system which is patently unfair to anyone who is still on the grid. That is to say, your incentives to make parity possible, along with the corresponding price increases affecting others who are not using solar, are the consequence of a system designed to favor solar PV production.
That is a political decision whose wisdom I will not debate here, but the "fairness" of the result is arguable.

</rant>

[pakman]

what is your problem

<rant>
I will not try to dispute your calculations and predictions, nor the conclusions that you draw from them. But I really take issue with the casual use of
"fair" in your thread title.

What you are talking about is grid-tied parity, which is here now, and off-grid parity, which is still a ways down the line, neither of which have any direct relation to fairness.
In fact, to get to off-grid parity (price of solar comparable to POCO (utility) supplied power with current technology you have to put into effect a system which is patently unfair to anyone who is still on the grid. That is to say, your incentives to make parity possible, along with the corresponding price increases affecting others who are not using solar, are the consequence of a system designed to favor solar PV production.
That is a political decision whose wisdom I will not debate here, but the "fairness" of the result is arguable.

</rant>

every time I read something you write it is like you have a hard on for hatred for whoever it is your addressing. your a belittling person and your not in line with the rights of others. man get off the grid just because your think your some sort of solar guru you think you can put everyone and everything down that does not agree with you. solar fanatic more like total jerk

[Naptown]

every time I read something you write it is like you have a hard on for hatred for whoever it is your addressing. your a belittling person and your not in line with the rights of others. man get off the grid just because your think your some sort of solar guru you think you can put everyone and everything down that does not agree with you. solar fanatic more like total jerk

Let me introduce you to Sunking

And you have made a whole 4 posts.

BTW INetdog is probably the most patient helpful people here.

[pakman]

really

Let me introduce you to Sunking

And you have made a whole 4 posts.

BTW INetdog is probably the most patient helpful people here.

I have read sunking's posts as well and he and this other guy like to belittle people and call them down just because they might want to give chinese stuff a try
it is degrading and not in line with the regulations that are supposed to govern this forum. these guys make it a habit of putting people down and sorry if this guy is the most patient then man what can I say
I read too many replies that he has put others down and sunking well I will not lower myself to that level thank you very much
if these guys are the best then it is not worth it I know that people would rather ignore them
they keep on grading on people till they stop posting and that is not in the spirit of this forum
it is supposed to be a place where people go to get help not get belittle
just because they don't know that a 12vdc system is for toys
if your not here to help then your a useless tool
don't know what these guys think they are doing belittling people who only want to get help
it sickens me they way the talk down to people
and I can only guess that a lot of people don't ask questions even though they need the help because they don't want to deal with the degrading
if that is what solar fanatics are all about then I would rather be a person who only posted 4 now 5 times

[Ian S]

every time I read something you write it is like you have a hard on for hatred for whoever it is your addressing. your a belittling person and your not in line with the rights of others. man get off the grid just because your think your some sort of solar guru you think you can put everyone and everything down that does not agree with you. solar fanatic more like total jerk

Very strange! All I read in inetdog's post was a very politely worded disagreement. Last time I checked that was allowed in this forum.

[Ian S]

Let me introduce you to Sunking

Indeed!

[russ]

I would rather be a person who only posted 4 now 5 times

Hi pakman - Your rant insured you are a person posting a maximum of 4 or 5 times. Get a life and go find people you like to play with. We are happy here.

[Sunking]

Let me introduce you to Sunking

Someone call me?

[russ]

Someone call me?

He went away forever before you showed up to set him straight.

[bonaire]

I think the guy wanted off the grid for social reasons and maybe spent a lot of time on conspiracy web sites talking about how the SHTf will happen any day now. EMPs, solar flares and all that.