Charging an Electric Car

[bcroe]

I have hear nothing about how the EVs do in accidents, or long term
maintenance. My suspicion is both will be troublesome. I have avoided
most costs with IC cars that are cheap to buy and cheap to maintain,
my favorite driver is 45 years old. Complex cars become consumables,
adding to the original cost if repairing them becomes out of reach.

Other issues, that 300 mile range is on good weather days on the flat
plaines, it will be drastically reduced trying to haul a lot of weight over
the mountains in the worst of winter. Something done here.

I see electrics as working for local deliveries, local drivers, and rental cars
for those who flew in. The railroads could go all electric, but they are
already so energy efficient, I think we should leave them alone. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

I have hear nothing about how the EVs do in accidents, or long term
maintenance. My suspicion is both will be troublesome. I have avoided
most costs with IC cars that are cheap to buy and cheap to maintain,
my favorite driver is 45 years old. Complex cars become consumables,
adding to the original cost if repairing them becomes out of reach.

Other issues, that 300 mile range is on good weather days on the flat
plaines, it will be drastically reduced trying to haul a lot of weight over
the mountains in the worst of winter. Something done here.

I see electrics as working for local deliveries, local drivers, and rental cars
for those who flew in. The railroads could go all electric, but they are
already so energy efficient, I think we should leave them alone. Bruce Roe

As for the railroads, I'd agree that it would be a mistake to mess with them too much. Most big rail prime movers are already electric in a sense. The common arrangement for the big machines hailing 100 + cars - although not universal - is for a diesel engine to power an electric generator that supplies power to electric traction motors. I guess they could be called hybrid vehicles.

There are or have been a few designs where a diesel drives the wheels through what might be called a transmission but transferring the power to the wheels makes for a lot of complexities with attendant problems.

[SunEagle]

How safe is the truck you are doing now?

I have not heard of any "safe" issues with my 2003 Tundra. The couple of recalls that I got have been dealt with and it now has about 232000 mile on it with probably another 100k left in it.

[Ward L]

At least for the Tesla, the Cadillac of EVs (pretty funny), the Model 3 got a 5-star safety rating in all the categories from the government. No other car has had as high marks for safety. Since the battery is on the bottom between the wheels, the car has a very low center of gravity. There was a Tesla Model X video where they slam it sideways into a sand box. It rolls over and then rolls back up-right. They could not get the Model X to stay upside down in this test. The Tesla cars are very safe.

As far as reliability, I've only got 40k miles on my Model 3 but it is holding up very well. EVs are hard on tires since they tend to weigh a little more than ICE vehicles. As far as routine maintenance, for EVs: no oil changes, filter changes, no spark plugs to change no coolant changes, no new brake pads (they use electrical regen to slow down and you rarely need to apply the brakes), no tune-ups, no smog checks, the freeze plugs don't fail, no power steering pump failure (they have servos or something to steer), no gas to buy. And you can wake up every morning with a full tank of electrons! Just to rub it in a little, I paid $60k for my Tesla 4 years ago. It was the most expensive car I have bought. Today, supposedly it is worth $55k in the used car market. So at least this point in time, the Tesla is probably the LEAST expensive car I have ever purchased. Yeah, yeah, I have a reservation for an UGLY Cybertruck. Reservation number ~43,000. Well ahead of the average of 1,000,000 Cybertruck reservations. The 203 Tundra had two 4-star ratings and one 1-star ratings. It doesn't mean much to say "I haven't hear of any safety issues".

And yes, if people stop buying gasoline, the price goes down if there is too much gasoline (or jet fuel or diesel) available.

[azdave]

I paid $60k for my Tesla 4 years ago. It was the most expensive car I have bought.

Some of us live much differently. I doubt I've spent $60K on my cars combined in the last 30 years. I've never paid more than $10K for any vehicle and that was almost 30 years ago and the last time I ever had a car loan. I'm 63 and learned long ago not to play the new car game. Never purchased anything newer than 8 years old or less than 60,000 miles. The newest car we have is 16 years old. Three of our daily drivers have over 200,000 miles and one is over 300,000. Safety is so much better in cars of the last 20 years that to me it is not even a consideration when I purchase. I'm just as likely to die in a fall at home as I am in a car accident.

Not sure I'll ever buy an EV but I'm sure they will eventually become the dominant vehicle type, if not by choice, then by mandate.

[bcroe]

The jury is still out on long term EV ownership. But they are
more complex than what came before them, which tends toward
more frequent and complex failures. Cars did steadily improve
in reliability and elegant design. IC cars can last too, there is a
Honda here now needing me to replace the clutch, after 459,000
miles.

Long term remains to be seen for EVs. The biggest issue I have
with IC cars at 4 decades, is pipes and wires running between
front and back rust out. Bearing grease dries out in a couple
decades. Will EVs be immune to these?

Are the EVs 4 wheel drive? Otherwise, regenerative braking will
only be applied to 2 wheels, not a good thing esp in poor conditions.

At the moment much of the population cannot afford an EV, and the
grid could not support a complete conversion, so it will be a while to
see how it all plays out. Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

...

And yes, if people stop buying gasoline, the price goes down if there is too much gasoline (or jet fuel or diesel) available.

Spoken like all the rest of the people that believe going green is the right thing to do no matter how much it may cost the rest of us.

IMO the price of gas will only come down if the people that run the oil companies feel it is necessary not because people use less.

[solardreamer]

The jury is still out on long term EV ownership. But they are
more complex than what came before them, which tends toward
more frequent and complex failures.

I agree the jury is still out. However, what leads you to think EV is more complex than ICE cars?

[J.P.M.]

The jury is still out on long term EV ownership. But they are
more complex than what came before them, which tends toward
more frequent and complex failures. Cars did steadily improve
in reliability and elegant design. IC cars can last too, there is a
Honda here now needing me to replace the clutch, after 459,000
miles.

Long term remains to be seen for EVs. The biggest issue I have
with IC cars at 4 decades, is pipes and wires running between
front and back rust out. Bearing grease dries out in a couple
decades. Will EVs be immune to these?

Are the EVs 4 wheel drive? Otherwise, regenerative braking will
only be applied to 2 wheels, not a good thing esp in poor conditions.

At the moment much of the population cannot afford an EV, and the
grid could not support a complete conversion, so it will be a while to
see how it all plays out. Bruce Roe

Bruce, seems that you and I and it sounds (reads) like SunEagle as well are of a mind that we drive a vehicle until the wheels fall off and repair it until it's no longer serviceable. I'd bet we are becoming a more rare breed these days, not only because of how long we keep a vehicle, but also that we do a lot or at least more of our own vehicle servicing than many/most folks. I'd suggest that older vehicles probably need more service.

While I'd agree that a vehicle with 2 motive systems - an electric motor and an ICE have more parts that make for problems due to the KISS principle, it seems to me that vehicles of all types are more reliable than in the past with some or a lot of that due to the fact that vehicles are kept for shorter periods than in the past by more people.

If a vehicle has, say, 4X as many failure points than, say, 30 years ago because of multiple motive systems and probably more dodads and stuff that allows us all to get more stupid but the MTBF is an order of magnitude longer than 30 years ago due to better mfg. processes, material and QC, maybe those improved facets of mfg. are sufficient to make today's vehicles of all types more reliable - whatever criteria are used to define reliability, compared to the past, even if we're driving more miles per year or other time period.

[foo1bar]

The jury is still out on long term EV ownership. But they are
more complex than what came before them, which tends toward
more frequent and complex failures. Cars did steadily improve
in reliability and elegant design. IC cars can last too, there is a
Honda here now needing me to replace the clutch, after 459,000
miles.

What do you mean by they are more complex than what came before them?
The complexity of a Tesla Model 3 is IMO less complex than a Honda Civic. It has fewer moving parts and less things that need to be lubricated.
Will we see EVs commonly at 100K+ - Yes. In fact, you can buy used vehicles with 100k+ miles now.
Will they be more or less common to hit the 460k mark than ICE vehicles? Too soon to know for sure I think. But so far it looks like EVs are more likely to last for 400k+ miles than similar ICE cars.

The data that's been seen so far from small EV fleets indicates that the number of days in the shop for EV's is smaller, and the service costs are less. Tesloop is one small fleet owner that's shared their data on how much it costs them for maintenance and how many days their vehicles are in the shop for fairly high mileage vehicles (they have multiple cars at 300K+ miles and some close to 500K )

Are the EVs 4 wheel drive? Otherwise, regenerative braking will
only be applied to 2 wheels, not a good thing esp in poor conditions.

Some are 4 wheel, some are 2 wheel.
However all 4 wheels still have brakes.
So they're not any different than ICE vehicles. I'll often use engine braking in my car, even in poor conditions. And that would be very similar to the regenerative braking of an EV.

At the moment much of the population cannot afford an EV, and the
grid could not support a complete conversion, so it will be a while to
see how it all plays out. Bruce Roe

I think they've reached the point where most of the US population can afford an EV.
Median US income (half make more, half make less) is $67,571 for 2020 (most recent data I found)
Used EVs can be found for $10k.
A new Nissan Leaf can be bought for $28k.
So they are definitely affordable for most of the US population.

10 years ago, they were much less affordable, but their prices have been coming down.

[bcroe]

What do you mean by they are more complex than what came before them?
The complexity of a Tesla Model 3 is IMO less complex than a Honda Civic. It has fewer moving parts and less things that need to be lubricated.


The data that's been seen so far from small EV fleets indicates that the number of days in the shop for EV's is smaller, and the
service costs are less. Tesloop is one small fleet owner that's shared their data on how much it costs them for maintenance and how many days their vehicles are in the shop for fairly high mileage vehicles (they have multiple cars at 300K+ miles and some close to 500K )

Some are 4 wheel, some are 2 wheel.
However all 4 wheels still have brakes.
So they're not any different than ICE vehicles. I'll often use engine braking in my car, even in poor conditions. And that would be very similar to the regenerative braking of an EV.


I think they've reached the point where most of the US population can afford an EV.
Median US income (half make more, half make less) is $67,571 for 2020 (most recent data I found)
Used EVs can be found for $10k.
A new Nissan Leaf can be bought for $28k.
So they are definitely affordable for most of the US population.

10 years ago, they were much less affordable, but their prices have been coming down.

I did not base reliability on MOVING parts, but rather the electronics.
They have quite literally billions of transistors, with plenty of backup
wiring. Those problems may not be much in the first years, but the
time will eventually come. And by then the factory will not be supporting
that older models. I am already dealing with this, fixing extremely simple
(by comparison) computers for 70s Cadillac fuel injection. I have fixed
them from 18 countries.

Days in the shop means it is too difficult for me to fix myself. The more
complex the car, the less likely I can fix it. I started rebuilding my
transmissions in 1985.

Manual engine braking is fine, you chose when to do it. Seems to me
regenerative braking is a bad idea on a 2 wheel drive car.

Might be interesting to see what fraction of the population actually
can afford anything but used cars. Only recently did I feel new
were affordable to me. Bruce Roe

[foo1bar]

I did not base reliability on MOVING parts, but rather the electronics.
They have quite literally billions of transistors, with plenty of backup
wiring. Those problems may not be much in the first years, but the
time will eventually come.

The electronics used for an EV powertrain and battery management are likely similar in complexity to the electronics used for a modern engine. A modern engine has electronics that are dealing with timing, fuel injection, emission control, etc.
And they have very high reliability. Much higher than the computers from 70s fuel injectors.

I expect the body panels will have rusted away on most EVs before they have electronics problems.

Manual engine braking is fine, you chose when to do it. Seems to me
regenerative braking is a bad idea on a 2 wheel drive car.

How is it different?
I take my foot off the gas pedal, and the car slows down because of engine braking or regenerative braking.
Either way it's only 2 wheels that are being slowed.
I need to slow quickly, so I step on the brake pedal, and the physical brakes are applied in both cases to all 4 wheels.
Still looks like the same deal to me.

[Ward L]

Sun Eagle: My greenie is the US Dollar. If what you say is true that oil companies set any price they want high or low, then why don't they price it even higher than now? Sure they are making a Billion dollars today, but why stop there. Let's make $ 1.5 Billion! Your belief would say no one will stop buying gas no matter how high they price it. At some point Mr. Big Oil will price it so high, even Sun Eagle decides to conserve a little and save some gas.... BINGO! You just implemented the supply vs demand curve. Don't like that example? Let's say you run a gas station and you decided to keep your prices low because you think the oil companies just charge too much for gas. So you are 5 cents under the market. Everyone rushes to your station and fills up. Oh ****, Mr. Low Price better order more gas! Calls up the terminal and says I need more gas right away and the terminal says to go fish, all their drivers are busy and can't deliver the load of fuel until tomorrow when Mr. Low Price was originally scheduled. Another point on the supply vs demand curve.

If a retail site prices their fuel too high for their customers, their volume slows down because their customers decide to buy somewhere else. In my area, Mobil seems to be the highest price gasoline around. People go to Mobil and pay the high price for several reasons. Maybe convivence, they have a Mobil credit card or maybe the station is never busy. The Mobil station is happy to sell a little less gas volume at a higher price. Then there is the ARCO station down the street with the price 10 cents lower. The station is packed and people go inside and buy beer too. The ARCO station makes 10% on the gas, but the 6-pack is marked up 100%. Costco happens to be the lowest price gasoline in my area. Costco has razor thin margins but the highest quality of gasoline as well. Why not buy Costco gas if you can? Because people hate waiting in line at Costco. Oh, the quality of the ARCO gas? It is the same as Mobil. Not that it matters much, but I say these things after 37 years of working for Mr. Big Oil. And yes, if we could charge more for gas and hold our volume, we would have.

[bcroe]

The electronics used for an EV powertrain and battery management are likely similar in complexity to the electronics used for a modern engine. A modern engine has electronics that are dealing with timing, fuel injection, emission control, etc.
And they have very high reliability. Much higher than the computers from 70s fuel injectors.

I expect the body panels will have rusted away on most EVs before they have electronics problems.


How is it different?
I take my foot off the gas pedal, and the car slows down because of engine braking or regenerative braking.
Either way it's only 2 wheels that are being slowed.
I need to slow quickly, so I step on the brake pedal, and the physical brakes are applied in both cases to all 4 wheels.
Still looks like the same deal to me.

The TH400 trans I have standardized on, has free wheeling clutches for
when you take your foot off the gas. There are a pair of friction bands
that engage when you pull the gear selector down, eliminating the free
wheeling, and giving you engine braking. So that is manually selected.
I am not sure about the top gear without more reserch.

Time is a killer of electronics, moisture eventually gets into any silicon
that does not have premium military components. That is the effect I
so often see, it is just a matter of time. Cosmic rays are a problem as
the geometry of transistors shrinks with very high density. I read one
projection that the lifetime might be 7 years. That may be wrong, but
the latest stuff is certainly more vulnerable. Anyway, something with
100 times the complexity will have a hard time being more reliable.

Rust is a problem, the biggest one I have. Most of the lines under my
cars eventually get replaced with rust resistant stainless, copper, of
copper-nickel. New cars could be built that way, I have not seen it yet.
Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

Sun Eagle: My greenie is the US Dollar. If what you say is true that oil companies set any price they want high or low, then why don't they price it even higher than now? Sure they are making a Billion dollars today, but why stop there. Let's make $ 1.5 Billion! Your belief would say no one will stop buying gas no matter how high they price it. At some point Mr. Big Oil will price it so high, even Sun Eagle decides to conserve a little and save some gas.... BINGO! You just implemented the supply vs demand curve. Don't like that example? Let's say you run a gas station and you decided to keep your prices low because you think the oil companies just charge too much for gas. So you are 5 cents under the market. Everyone rushes to your station and fills up. Oh ****, Mr. Low Price better order more gas! Calls up the terminal and says I need more gas right away and the terminal says to go fish, all their drivers are busy and can't deliver the load of fuel until tomorrow when Mr. Low Price was originally scheduled. Another point on the supply vs demand curve.

If a retail site prices their fuel too high for their customers, their volume slows down because their customers decide to buy somewhere else. In my area, Mobil seems to be the highest price gasoline around. People go to Mobil and pay the high price for several reasons. Maybe convivence, they have a Mobil credit card or maybe the station is never busy. The Mobil station is happy to sell a little less gas volume at a higher price. Then there is the ARCO station down the street with the price 10 cents lower. The station is packed and people go inside and buy beer too. The ARCO station makes 10% on the gas, but the 6-pack is marked up 100%. Costco happens to be the lowest price gasoline in my area. Costco has razor thin margins but the highest quality of gasoline as well. Why not buy Costco gas if you can? Because people hate waiting in line at Costco. Oh, the quality of the ARCO gas? It is the same as Mobil. Not that it matters much, but I say these things after 37 years of working for Mr. Big Oil. And yes, if we could charge more for gas and hold our volume, we would have.

I guess it is fruitless to make you understand what i am thinking. All I can do is try to tell you that 30 years ago gas stations seem to have had price wars where they would reduce the cost of a gallon by X cents to get more customers. Now it seems that they all raise the price to be the same and don't care if their competitor is charging what they are. IMO it is strange thinking and they no longer follow the price/demand curve that I was taught in my economics class back in the 70's.

Maybe you are correct and that the price of gas will come down if more people don't purchase it but then again I see nothing that indicates that will be the trend. Especially if you look at the price of gas in a state that has a lot of EV's compared to the price where there are more ICE vehicles.

Again what I think may be wrong but for right now I do not believe that purchasing less gas will drive the oil companies to lower their prices.

You can respond to this post but I am out of this thread and will no longer try to convince others what I believe.