Honda Insight vs Toyota Prius

[SunEagle]

I've tried to internalize "never say never" into my thinking, but from what I learned from working with H2 systems, I bet there's a lot of public ignorance of the challenges to be dealt with in the large scale generation, transport, storage and use of H2 for use as a fuel or energy source.

Not saying it won't happen. It's a great energy source (e.g., the sun), with many advantages. Just that, in many ways, it's a different animal than, say CH4 and way different than the mostly technically ignorant tree hugging, R.E. shills and leeches would have us believe for their perhaps no so noble and parochial reasons.

There is also the fear level of a possible explosion that people will need to get over.

[J.P.M.]

You are one of the lucky few that have a condition that allows you enjoy the EV lifestyle by being able to charge at work and at home.

An EV is not for everyone and due to the distance most people commute to work, an EV will never be a product they will purchase until the initial price comes way down and "free" charging stations are built at their work site.

I am still hoping for hydrogen hybrids but again the infrastructure to refill the vehicles is a far distant thought.

I've tried to internalize "never say never" into my thinking, but from what I learned from working with H2 systems, I bet there's a lot of public ignorance of the challenges to be dealt with in the large scale generation, transport, storage and use of H2 for use as a fuel or energy source.

Not saying it won't happen. It's a great energy source (e.g., the sun), with many advantages. Just that, in many ways, it's a different animal than, say CH4 and way different than the mostly technically ignorant tree hugging, R.E. shills and leeches would have us believe for their perhaps no so noble and parochial reasons.

[SunEagle]

I do like nuclear, but the general public doesn't, so unfortunately, I don't see it going anywhere. Natural gas isn't ideal, but it's still far cleaner than oil or coal.

You'd actually be surprised at how many EVs we could support. Since the majority of charging is done at home, overnight when demand is low, you could realistically add an EV to millions of homes without a problem.
And so what if commercial charging stations cost a lot. I've only ever used one once, because I simply charge up at home every night (and at work because I'm lucky to have a free station there as well.)

You are one of the lucky few that have a condition that allows you enjoy the EV lifestyle by being able to charge at work and at home.

An EV is not for everyone and due to the distance most people commute to work, an EV will never be a product they will purchase until the initial price comes way down and "free" charging stations are built at their work site.

I am still hoping for hydrogen hybrids but again the infrastructure to refill the vehicles is a far distant thought.

[emartin00]

That's very interesting and definitely useful as they define what I was talking about as the "well-to-wheel" environment.

But we shouldn't let *local* improvements, such as EV use, be a get-out-of-jail-card for continuing to use and promote fossil fuel (in whatever form) power plants. Nuclear (in various forms - is where we should be headed).

Oil crisis and flexibility? Laugh. Our infrastructure is not set up, nor will it be in the near future for mass consumer EV charging. And of course, charging stations may charge($) as much as petrol eventually, once the stranglehold on a charging monopoly is complete.

I do like nuclear, but the general public doesn't, so unfortunately, I don't see it going anywhere. Natural gas isn't ideal, but it's still far cleaner than oil or coal.

You'd actually be surprised at how many EVs we could support. Since the majority of charging is done at home, overnight when demand is low, you could realistically add an EV to millions of homes without a problem.
And so what if commercial charging stations cost a lot. I've only ever used one once, because I simply charge up at home every night (and at work because I'm lucky to have a free station there as well.)

[PNjunction]

Here in the US, an EV is cleaner than the average ICE car in almost every state.
You can plug in your zipcode here to see exactly how much: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/..._emissions.php

That's very interesting and definitely useful as they define what I was talking about as the "well-to-wheel" environment.

But we shouldn't let *local* improvements, such as EV use, be a get-out-of-jail-card for continuing to use and promote fossil fuel (in whatever form) power plants. Nuclear (in various forms - is where we should be headed).

Oil crisis and flexibility? Laugh. Our infrastructure is not set up, nor will it be in the near future for mass consumer EV charging. And of course, charging stations may charge($) as much as petrol eventually, once the stranglehold on a charging monopoly is complete.

[truav8r]

The problem is that consumers don't look at the cost to maintain. EVs are far cheaper to maintain than ICE vehicles. The Volt has a lower 5 year total cost of ownership than the Cruze.
I've had my Volt for 4 years, and the only maintenance it has needed is 2 oil changes. Yes, 2, in 4 years. At 35k miles, I would be up to 7 with a Cruze, not to mention anything else it may need.
EV is also far cheaper than gas. I can get 40 miles for less than $1 of electricity. Even with gas at $2/gallon, you would be lucky to do half that good.

The (lack of) maintenance on the Leaf is one of the big draws for me. We replaced a VW TDI, which is a tinkerer's dream car. And I messed around with that car a lot, added and upgraded different parts here and there with Euro spec parts, etc. Learned a lot and had fun in the process. But that was when I was single. Now, it's fun to *not* mess with a car.

The 3 year maintenance schedule on the Leaf is nothing more than rotate tires once in a while. I had the TDI for 11 years (215k miles) and an Escape for 10 years (130k). Virtually every part that needed scheduled or non-scheduled repairs on those vehicles simply doesn't exist on a true EV like the Leaf - timing belt replacements, spark plugs, exhaust replacements, fuel filters, not to mention the routine items like oil changes and air filters.

I use a wifi OBD and my iPhone to check on the EV battery health. It's been exactly 1 year, and my battery is still 100% fresh as the day I bought it. I'm willing to "play the game" with the battery to maintain that health, but it's inevitable that it will start a slow degradation soon. And as EV prices keep falling, soon it won't even be necessary to keep close tabs on the battery, since there will be plenty of extra kWhs in the pack before very long.

YMMV

[jflorey2]

And yet the total number of EV's sold in 2014 was less than 1% of total vehicles sold. And even with the push of newer and better models the estimated sales for EV's in 2025 will only be 20% of total.

Right. 20% is a good target. EV's aren't for everyone; many people need greater range or faster fueling than EV's can provide.

One of the most important things that EV's will give us is fuel flexibility. The next time we have an oil shock, if we have EV's ready to be a part of the solution, then it won't hit us nearly as hard as if we were 100% gasoline powered. (Same goes for technologies like ethanol, natural gas, biogas etc.)

So unfortunately unless gas goes back up above $4/gallon I see very little increase of sales for those type of cars.

That's the key. For long term profitability of tight oil, oil has to stay above about $60/barrel - and that means that higher prices will eventually return.

[J.P.M.]

The problem is that consumers don't look at the cost to maintain. EVs are far cheaper to maintain than ICE vehicles. The Volt has a lower 5 year total cost of ownership than the Cruze.
I've had my Volt for 4 years, and the only maintenance it has needed is 2 oil changes. Yes, 2, in 4 years. At 35k miles, I would be up to 7 with a Cruze, not to mention anything else it may need.
EV is also far cheaper than gas. I can get 40 miles for less than $1 of electricity. Even with gas at $2/gallon, you would be lucky to do half that good.

A bigger problem might be that consumers (at least in the U.S.) don't look much at costs, period, at least, for this conversation, as it might relate to transportation and associated costs. If they did, for starters they'd do the no brainer thing and keep their vehicles a little longer if they had a vehicle at all, but that's drifting into the area of the confusion between wants and needs.

As to EV vs. ICE ownership costs, that's the stuff of process economics. Which one will cost less after X years of ownership ? Or, conversely, which one will leave you with more $$'s after all cost considerations over X years using time value of money concepts ?

Because the future is not absolutely predictable beyond some ill- or non- defined probability, the best you can do, if you can be truly objective and dispassionate about it, is take your best shot based on information that is no better than an educated guess. Expecting more accuracy is probably wishful thinking and the vision of a fool.

Three steps: Do your time value of money homework, pay your money, take your choice. Most folks skip step one.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[SunEagle]

The problem is that consumers don't look at the cost to maintain. EVs are far cheaper to maintain than ICE vehicles. The Volt has a lower 5 year total cost of ownership than the Cruze.
I've had my Volt for 4 years, and the only maintenance it has needed is 2 oil changes. Yes, 2, in 4 years. At 35k miles, I would be up to 7 with a Cruze, not to mention anything else it may need.
EV is also far cheaper than gas. I can get 40 miles for less than $1 of electricity. Even with gas at $2/gallon, you would be lucky to do half that good.

While the cost to maintain may not be looked at by all, most consumers combine that cost along with the initial cost as well as the dependability of a vehicle to the formula before they make a major purchase.

I will get one eventually but at this time it is not a viable resource due to the lack of charging infrastructure in my area and the longer one way commute distance.

Maybe if initial costs come down while the battery range goes up I will make the leap. But at this time I still need an ICE or hybrid vehicle for most of my driving requirements.

[emartin00]

And yet the total number of EV's sold in 2014 was less than 1% of total vehicles sold. And even with the push of newer and better models the estimated sales for EV's in 2025 will only be 20% of total.

Apparently being 3 times cleaner is not a motivation for the US public. The problem is cost to maintain and run a vehicle.

So unfortunately unless gas goes back up above $4/gallon I see very little increase of sales for those type of cars.

The problem is that consumers don't look at the cost to maintain. EVs are far cheaper to maintain than ICE vehicles. The Volt has a lower 5 year total cost of ownership than the Cruze.
I've had my Volt for 4 years, and the only maintenance it has needed is 2 oil changes. Yes, 2, in 4 years. At 35k miles, I would be up to 7 with a Cruze, not to mention anything else it may need.
EV is also far cheaper than gas. I can get 40 miles for less than $1 of electricity. Even with gas at $2/gallon, you would be lucky to do half that good.

[SunEagle]

Here in the US, an EV is cleaner than the average ICE car in almost every state.
You can plug in your zipcode here to see exactly how much: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/..._emissions.php

In my area, an EV is 3 times cleaner.

And remember, gas doesn't come out of the ground ready to burn. It takes an average of 6kWh of electricity to refine a gallon of gas. You could drive an EV 20 miles on that energy alone.

And yet the total number of EV's sold in 2014 was less than 1% of total vehicles sold. And even with the push of newer and better models the estimated sales for EV's in 2025 will only be 20% of total.

Apparently being 3 times cleaner is not a motivation for the US public. The problem is cost to maintain and run a vehicle.

So unfortunately unless gas goes back up above $4/gallon I see very little increase of sales for those type of cars.

[emartin00]

Heh, there is always the issue of just moving the chess pieces around.

At the other end of a "pure-EV", is there a fossil-fuel, coal-fired power plant in the next state / territory providing the juice for your charge?

The entire delivery chain has to be looked at, and is only as strong as it's weakest link. But there are those that are happy as long as that link is not in their neighborhood.

I think the early Australian EV pioneers really brought this issue to the forefront a few decades ago.

Here in the US, an EV is cleaner than the average ICE car in almost every state.
You can plug in your zipcode here to see exactly how much: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/..._emissions.php

In my area, an EV is 3 times cleaner.

And remember, gas doesn't come out of the ground ready to burn. It takes an average of 6kWh of electricity to refine a gallon of gas. You could drive an EV 20 miles on that energy alone.

[PNjunction]

Heh, there is always the issue of just moving the chess pieces around.

At the other end of a "pure-EV", is there a fossil-fuel, coal-fired power plant in the next state / territory providing the juice for your charge?

The entire delivery chain has to be looked at, and is only as strong as it's weakest link. But there are those that are happy as long as that link is not in their neighborhood.

I think the early Australian EV pioneers really brought this issue to the forefront a few decades ago.

[truav8r]

The compromise nature of "hybrids" is a turn off to me. Can't go very far on the electric portion, and still have the maintenance on the ICE portion. Go pure EV or go home, I say. We have a Leaf and love it. Great commuter vehicle if your work / life allows for it.

[inetdog]

In my opinion hybrid technology is not so good. But it has few advantage. I would personally buy an electric car.
P.S. i read http://italkaboutcars.com/5_facts_to...rids_pros_cons and that's why electric car is my favorite)) link isn't a spam.

An interesting link, but the guy lost all credibility with me when he stated that hybrids have been around for a long time and cited examples of pure steam and pure electric vehicles to prove his statement.