Big Mess with my Solar Panel Company

[J.P.M.]

I read it but it's not written in a language normal people can understand. The Lawyer read it but without experience dealing with a solar company, it would have sounded fine. I'm having a hard time thinking of any scenario where you're buying a house with solar panels and there is ANYONE involved at all, that has enough experience to tell you that these solar panels are a bad deal, and the contract is a borderline scam, and that I'm going to be using WAY less electricity than the previous owner so there will be not only no savings, but significantly increased expense. Other than the general i consensus that "20 year solar leases are bad, don't buy a house with them", but that wasn't really a thing in 2014. People all over this city were getting panels from vivint back then. They're all going to be so screwed unless Mass passes a law saying a customer can cancel one of these contracts at any time.

Look, I'm really, REALLY sorry for your situation. It sucks. But as for being unaware, the first solar lease I read in 2007 was a POS and I knew it after the first page. Ever since, and for a lot of reasons, I and a lot of others have been shouting Caveat Emptor about leases that are a lot more detailed than "20 year solar leases are bad...". If you were on this forum after Aug., 2013 before you bought, you may have read some of my rants about leases.

Even with that, If I'm a "normal" person, and I don't/can't/won't understand what's in a contract, I'd not sign it. That seems a reasonable approach to me. How difficult is that ?

Some of what you cite, such as your lower usage, is but one of many reasons why I'd never buy a home with existing solar, much less ever get involved in a lease or a PPA.

[DrLumen]

First, each time you talk or deal with them, document everything. Time of the calls, who you spoke to, what was said, etc. Perhaps record the conversations if it is legal in your state.

Force them to provide a transfer agreement. If they can't then they have no electric usage claims against you. As to what would happen next I can only say from my local perspective as each state has different laws. Here, they would then go after the previous owner for the electric bills. They of course would fight them but would likely lose as they signed the contracts and didn't transfer shtuff properly. They would be responsible for the monthly bills to this point. Yes, it would screw them over but they signed the silly agreement and didn't do the due diligence to have it transferred.

Then, vivint would file a mechanics lien against the property for the (likely) prorated cost or contracted amount of the system. You would be on the hook for that as the system is still physically located on the property. If you are not familiar with a mechanics lien, it is basically saying if you sell the house you own them X amount of dollars and you can't sell it unless you pay it. They then might sue you for the cost of the system as you have possession. If they win, you pay and keep the system or you pay some and they remove it. Once you pay they would then need to lift the mechanics lien.

You are in a mess. At first blush, your 'lawyer' screwed you as he should have caught all of this before you bought the place. Maybe put him on the hook for malpractice?

I wouldn't suggest waiting. Those bills and interest is just accumulating and you might end up having to cough that up. There is no statute of limitations on contracts - particular if they are still in force. Get it resolved now and be done with it. If there is a judgement against you, talk to the judge about a payment plan or something.

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet.

[Walker]

Here's a brief article that may offer some tips:

http://whdh.com/news/hank-investigates-leased-solar-panels/

You may be able to get some advise from your state's Attorney General.

http://www.mass.gov/ago/doing-business-in-massachusetts/energy-and-utilities/help-for-consumers/

[cebury]

I read it but it's not written in a language normal people can understand. The Lawyer read it but without experience dealing with a solar company, it would have sounded fine. I'm having a hard time thinking of any scenario where you're buying a house with solar panels and there is ANYONE involved at all, that has enough experience to tell you that these solar panels are a bad deal, and the contract is a borderline scam, and that I'm going to be using WAY less electricity than the previous owner so there will be not only no savings, but significantly increased expense. Other than the general i consensus that "20 year solar leases are bad, don't buy a house with them", but that wasn't really a thing in 2014. People all over this city were getting panels from vivint back then. They're all going to be so screwed unless Mass passes a law saying a customer can cancel one of these contracts at any time.

These leases are definitely more common knowledge now, likely moreso in areas where said leasing vendors made inroads into fooling more of the public with their no-money down, loaded contract, PV systems that still managed to separate people from their money, but more on the back-end when it was time to refinance or sell the home to collect their contract buyout lump sum. There was plenty of argument and discussion of the negatives of leasing back when I joined in 2011. I still have posts bookmarked when I considered one (for a few moments).

You may be at the end of quality advice from the forum here, maybe not. I would be surprised if you would obtain specific advice on next steps or an action plan other than general ideas. Since I tried to help earlier, I will submit mine for whatever it is worth.

Despite the worthlessness of your last lawyer you really needed him for state specific advice for risk assessment: if you do not make a move, wait for them to pursue legal action, etc. vs. sending them your own notice that the system they own is on your property and they can come remove it within x days by making arrangments with you. You needed better understandings of odds, options and said risks. You didnt need an attorney to call them to ask for buyout numbers. A more aggressive one wouldve at minimum sent a letter to vivint as "show me the contract between you and my client, if none, please stop contacting him". If you seek help in the future, I would suggest you take an active role upfront before retainer is paid by listing a simple directive/goals list for guidance of how an attorney spends his time. I always do this with mine, it eases communications and expectations between us, minimizing conflict.

If you go the no contact route and hope they lost your transfer contract or never collected one or go after the original owner, just be aware if they eventually find it you may really be out lots of cash at that point or head to court. In the meantime, as I said in my earlier posts last year, they can send you to collections with little to no paperwork showing your signature (my knowledge is a bit outdated here and was CA state specific). If this holds, your credit score is an easy target for them to hit compared to the difficulty for you to get the negative report removed if vivint fights it.

[eryeal]

My gut tells me that since they stopped communicating with you altogether, that they most likely realized they didn't have a signed transfer agreement, and therefore there was really nothing they could do. I doubt they went after the previous owners because if they did, I'm sure the previous owners would attempt to contact you.

But, I still wouldn't want to live with the notion that tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, etc - they come back at you or they have the signed agreement, etc. At this point I wouldn't spend the money to get another lawyer involved - I'd just keep picking up the phone and contacting them, and getting a resolution. Specify again that you signed no transfer agreement, and therefore aren't responsible, and you want to know what they are doing about the panels. Either they give the system to you, or they remove it. If you can't really get an answer and want to speed things along, then send them a certified letter stating the facts, all communication both ways that has happened, no transfer agreement, and that if you don't hear back from them within 30 days, you will consider their panels and system abandoned by them on your property and you reserve the right to do with it as you want.

[max2k]

Being quiet at this point is against you. You need to take the lead and create paper trail of the fact there's no transfer agreement with your signature on it now. Even if it shows up later it will be impossible to enforce for the period until that moment. Getting rid of the system in the process (or may be buying it outright from Vivint at a very reasonable price) would be also one of my objectives so at the end there would be no someone else property on my roof.

[Walker]

My gut tells me that since they stopped communicating with you altogether, that they most likely realized they didn't have a signed transfer agreement....

..... picking up the phone and contacting them, and getting a resolution. Specify again that you signed no transfer agreement, and therefore aren't responsible, and you want to know what they are doing about the panels. Either they give the system to you, or they remove it.
......certified letter stating the facts, all communication both ways that has happened, no transfer agreement, and that if you don't hear back from them within 30 days, you will consider their panels and system abandoned by them on your property and you reserve the right to do with it as you want.

Sounds like a solid plan!
They seem to be floundering with their process.... contacting both you and the previous owner to get payment.
You did say you may have signed an agreement.... but if they can't produce it, you have a huge advantage. If it does show up, you'll be held accountable to the terms.
I'd caution against sending them anything with your signature on it.... in case they attempt to lift it and put it on another document. Perhaps you could spell it wrong, Ha!
They may be willing to negotiate at this point. If you can get the system for $10k, it would be worthwhile if the house is a 10 year or more investment .
Your Attorney General may have dealt with similar situations and have some good advise.
Good luck with it.

[foo1bar]

Then, vivint would file a mechanics lien against the property for the (likely) prorated cost or contracted amount of the system. You would be on the hook for that as the system is still physically located on the property. If you are not familiar with a mechanics lien, it is basically saying if you sell the house you own them X amount of dollars and you can't sell it unless you pay it.
...
I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet.

Whether they could file a lien is going to be very dependent on state law.
I do not believe they would be able to successfully file/maintain a mechanics lien in CA.
It's >2 years after the construction and after the sale of the property. So the title insurance company would probably get rid of that claim pretty quickly.

There might be other legal avenues they could pursue - I'm not a lawyer, so don't know what other options they might have.
If there isn't any transfer agreement then I'd agree they probably don't have any ability to get money from the OP.

[peakbagger]

I wonder where title insurance comes in on something like this? In theory during the title search any liens or attachments should have been brought up and they would need to be resolved. One of the reasons for title insurance is to cover any liens that may pop up after the transfer. Odds are highly likely that there was a mortgage written on the property and a bank generally wont go near a property with an unresolved lien or attachment. The deed is probably a warranty deed and that also has some potential protection in that the prior seller had to deliver a deed free and clear of liens and attachments.Unfortunately the only way this will help is if a lawyer gets involved. Might be worth pulling out the deed and searching the registry of deeds to see if there are any other filed documents on the property.

I expect the problem is that the buyer probably went to a typical closing where a closing agent has a huge stack of documents and everyone is in a rush to get through the process. Unless the buyer has his lawyer in the room reviewing the documents I expect the buyer really didn't understand every document he signed. Unless there was some sort of agreement signed by the buyer to take it over at closing I expect the solar company is just throwing out legalese see where it will stick.

[l008com]

I wonder where title insurance comes in on something like this? In theory during the title search any liens or attachments should have been brought up and they would need to be resolved. One of the reasons for title insurance is to cover any liens that may pop up after the transfer. Odds are highly likely that there was a mortgage written on the property and a bank generally wont go near a property with an unresolved lien or attachment. The deed is probably a warranty deed and that also has some potential protection in that the prior seller had to deliver a deed free and clear of liens and attachments.Unfortunately the only way this will help is if a lawyer gets involved. Might be worth pulling out the deed and searching the registry of deeds to see if there are any other filed documents on the property.

I expect the problem is that the buyer probably went to a typical closing where a closing agent has a huge stack of documents and everyone is in a rush to get through the process. Unless the buyer has his lawyer in the room reviewing the documents I expect the buyer really didn't understand every document he signed. Unless there was some sort of agreement signed by the buyer to take it over at closing I expect the solar company is just throwing out legalese see where it will stick.

When I search my county's land records, all that comes up for me, for my house, is a deed, a mortgage, and a declaration of homestead. That said, I don't fully understand what all of this stuff means, and what 'title insurance' even is.

Also you are right about the mortgage signing. Of course they just stream the papers by you. If they were going to explain each document you signed in any kind of meaningful detail, it would take days to do a mortgage signing with the 6" stack of papers you have to go through. If there was a solar agreement in there, I'm certain it would have been explained to me as "this transfers the solar panels to you". Theres no way anyone, certainly not my lawyer or my real estate agent, would have been able to know the details of how it would work and what a bad deal it was going to be. I mean right off the bat, they tell you to look at the previous owners electric bills to get an idea of what you will pay. For a whole long list of reasons, that average would have been WAY higher than what I'm actually using. That's what I'm saying, even if I did every possible bit of due-dilligence, this is a trap I'm sure I would have fallen in no matter what. Anything short of finding this website and searching around for information on vivint solar leases. But remember, I wasn't "looking in to" solar panels. I found a house, placed an offer, and it happened to come with them. I had no reason at all to think there might be anything wrong with the way the panels work. Sure, if I already owned the house and wanted to put panels on it, I would have spend weeks or months doing researching on all my options. But the way these panels came into my life, they were a trap that there's no realistic way I would have avoided.



Also still waiting to hear back from vivint from my email. We'll see if/when that happens.
If they can't present a transfer agreement, and don't respond to well to my request to remove the panels, what do I then? Have my lawyer write up an Eviction Notice? The idea of it coming to that makes me laugh.

[Walker]

Try contacting your mortgage company to see if they have any details of a solar contract. They have a financial stake in your house and may have taken steps to cover their financial interests in case of a solar mishap.
Here's an article which mentions steps Fanny Mae has taken concerning mortgages on solar-equipped homes. Note item 4 which states the solar panel install may be responsible for damage caused by the installation. ....a little more ammo for you to throw at vivint.

http://www.brooksandcrowley.com/real-estate-blog/solar-panel-leases-what-you-dont-know-may-slow-or-stop-your-real-estate-sale-boston-dedham-ma

In addition to the Attorney General, contact the Better Business Bureau as well.

Someone already mentioned filing for 'abandoned property' if vivent refuses to resolve the issue.

There are certainly benefits to keeping a solar system in Mass. Lots of info here on the solar rocks site

https://solarpowerrocks.com/massachusetts/

[cebury]

There is a fine balance between taking the lead/creating a paper trail snd becoming a nuisance to vivint by contacting the attorney general, bbb, creating filings against them too quickly. They may just send your case to their corporate attorney to deal with you, if you take all this advice above and become "the nail that sticks up..." What you (were supposed to) get with an attorney isnt the knowledge from a diy checklist website, but the experience to execute a winning strategy. Good luck.

[macaddict]

You mentioned that you really don't have the $ to spend on lawyers to help you with this. You may be interested in this: https://www.araglegal.com/individuals/coverage

You basically pay a small fee every month and you get access to lawyers to help you with most legal items. I've used them to do my will, sell a house, purchase a house, review a rental lease contract, and I also used them to review my solar panel installation & service contract. I've had to pay almost nothing for all of this.

I get this through work for a reduced fee but even if you buy it yourself, you'll be saving a ton of money.

Money well spent in my books.

[l008com]

One thought that just occurred to me, is reducing the size of the solar array something vivint would consider? If it's clear that my array makes a yearly average of 3x more kWH than I use? This would at least stop my monthly electric bill from tripling, and then after a few months, in theory the buy-out on the panels would be smaller so I could hopefully, ultimately work towards buying them out and getting rid of them.

This is assuming all else fails... which is looking more probably now.

[J.P.M.]

One thought that just occurred to me, is reducing the size of the solar array something vivint would consider? If it's clear that my array makes a yearly average of 3x more kWH than I use? This would at least stop my monthly electric bill from tripling, and then after a few months, in theory the buy-out on the panels would be smaller so I could hopefully, ultimately work towards buying them out and getting rid of them.

This is assuming all else fails... which is looking more probably now.

I wouldn't bet on it.