Solar energy from discarded car batteries

[SunEagle]

At $1.5 an installed watt residential solar is competitive with grid electricity without subsides for the majority of Americans according to the DOE sunshot initiative. At $1 a watt utility solar becomes competitive with fossil fuels. Solar City's installed costs are already $1.92. Technology is amazing in general because it gets better and cheaper with time. The boon to civilization of cheap/fast processors has been huge. The boon to civilization of cheap solar energy will be very large, especially for poor people.

You continue to think in a narrow area and believe that if the cost for solar goes down to pennies per watt then people would be lining up to get it installed.

I would think that poor people would be more focused on spending the little money they have for food and shelter instead of a solar pv system. Cheap electric power does not motivate the majority of the poor people like you think because they have learned to live without the luxury of electric power on a 24/7 basis.

Even at $1.50/watt it would still take me over 5 years to get my money back. And while I would really like to have a solar pv installation that is not necessarily an investment that I would jump at before spending my money elsewhere. So cheap solar power may motivate some people but unless cheap electricity as a major priority in your life it will not be a boon to most civilization.

[Living Large]

Level of academic achievement is highly correlated with intelligence. It is amazing ignorant that you don't understand this simple fact, but I fear from the dullness of your posts that your education must have been significantly substandard. Furthermore, it is the height of hypocrisy for someone who attended a subsidized state school to be so vociferously against subsides. I have much more important things to do than argue with someone who is morally and/or intellectually lacking.

Personally, I'm glad that you are so busy that you can't stick around and stink up the joint some more than you already have. There are many knowledgeable people here, and they don't waste time comparing each other's diplomas. Enjoy your hiatus.

[Sunking]

Someone with a masters from a state school is calling other people "idiots and morons". It's enough to make a cat laugh.

I am retired living the Dream in Panama and not a worry in the world. I get to hang around a while you are banned. Guess who is laughing at you?

[Mike90250]

Veritass is on a short vacation (a time out)

[J.P.M.]

I have much more important things to do than argue with someone who is morally and/or intellectually lacking.

Me too. see ya'.

My apologies to the OP and the rest of the forum for wasting your time.

[veritass]

Guess I'm not quite done after all.

While not agreeing w/ Sunking's often verbal histrionics, to imply, as you seem to be doing above, that any formal higher education as it's recognized in the developed world is an indicator or arbiter of intelligence would also be laughable were it not so sad. Thanks for informing us of your myopic outlook on intelligence.

Level of academic achievement is highly correlated with intelligence. It is amazing ignorant that you don't understand this simple fact, but I fear from the dullness of your posts that your education must have been significantly substandard. Furthermore, it is the height of hypocrisy for someone who attended a subsidized state school to be so vociferously against subsides. I have much more important things to do than argue with someone who is morally and/or intellectually lacking.

[J.P.M.]

Someone with a masters from a state school is calling other people "idiots and morons". It's enough to make a cat laugh.

Guess I'm not quite done after all.

While not agreeing w/ Sunking's often verbal histrionics, to imply, as you seem to be doing above, that any formal higher education as it's recognized in the developed world is an indicator or arbiter of intelligence would also be laughable were it not so sad. Thanks for informing us of your myopic outlook on intelligence.

[veritass]

Thjat is what I said, Green Mafia, Tree Huggers, whatever you want to call idiots and morons. Green Mafia is a lot easier to say than "ill informed, non critically thinking repeaters of what fits a myopic, undereducated, view of reality" They do not understand all those words. ..

Unfortunately the term "Amercan's" also fit your description.

Someone with a masters from a state school is calling other people "idiots and morons". It's enough to make a cat laugh.

[J.P.M.]

Unfortunately the term "Amercan's" also fit your description.

Which, unfortunately or not, I may well believe more than you, and one more reason why I'm in mourning for my country. But that's enough off topic for me. The last word is yours.

[veritass]

So what if the installed costs keep dropping? At what point will that $/watt have to be for someone paying less than $0.10/kWh to have a desirable payback? Especially if Net metering goes away and new connection fees increase.

Even if the cost for pv drops again by 50% of what it is today you are still looking at an uphill battle to get a much larger portion of energy generation coming from solar.

Unfortunately is takes more than a low price for pv panels to generate a high desire for people to install it. For most people the cost of electricity is a small percentage of someones monthly expenses.

At $1.5 an installed watt residential solar is competitive with grid electricity without subsides for the majority of Americans according to the DOE sunshot initiative. At $1 a watt utility solar becomes competitive with fossil fuels. Solar City's installed costs are already $1.92. Technology is amazing in general because it gets better and cheaper with time. The boon to civilization of cheap/fast processors has been huge. The boon to civilization of cheap solar energy will be very large, especially for poor people.

[SunEagle]

"The costs now are skewed by governmental subsidies, when they go away, the true costs will stabilize"

Lame effort to try to minimize the fact that installed costs per watt BEFORE SUBSIDES have declined 50% in 5 years. Why does it pain you to admit that fact?

So what if the installed costs keep dropping? At what point will that $/watt have to be for someone paying less than $0.10/kWh to have a desirable payback? Especially if Net metering goes away and new connection fees increase.

Even if the cost for pv drops again by 50% of what it is today you are still looking at an uphill battle to get a much larger portion of energy generation coming from solar.

Unfortunately is takes more than a low price for pv panels to generate a high desire for people to install it. For most people the cost of electricity is a small percentage of someones monthly expenses.

[Sunking]

More like ill informed, non critically thinking repeaters of what fits a myopic, undereducated, view of reality..

Thjat is what I said, Green Mafia, Tree Huggers, whatever you want to call idiots and morons. Green Mafia is a lot easier to say than "ill informed, non critically thinking repeaters of what fits a myopic, undereducated, view of reality" They do not understand all those words. ..

Unfortunately the term "Amercan's" also fit your description.

[J.P.M.]

Typical Green Mafia tatic. Without subsides, incentives, and forced Net Metering there is no Solar industry. It is a House of Cards.

Green Mafia ? Too ominous ! I'd not give it that much weight.

More like ill informed, non critically thinking repeaters of what fits a myopic, undereducated, view of reality.

But, opinions vary.

[Sunking]

If you are just some fossil fuel troll, I'm sure you will have no problem answering the question. How far do you think installed costs per watt for residential solar before subsides will have declined in 2020 vs 2015.

Typical Green Mafia tatic. Without subsides, incentives, and forced Net Metering there is no Solar industry. It is a House of Cards.

[J.P.M.]

LOL, we are just speculating about the future. The solar industry has already made enormous strides. Costs have fallen 50% in five years. For any fair minded observer, that is a big achievement. How far do you think costs will fall by 2020? If you are just some fossil fuel troll, I'm sure you will have no problem answering the question. How far do you think installed costs per watt for residential solar before subsides will have declined in 2020 vs 2015.

The short answer to your question (and taking a somewhat longer, wider view than 1st cost) : W/out tax credits, the bottom line, after tax credit costs to selling prices to homeowners prices may go up. However, on a most bang for the buck, long term cost effectiveness basis, acquisition and long term operating costs will go down. With tax credits, 1st costs will perhaps decrease slightly due to mfg. improvements and other reductions in things like racking, standardization of assembly, permitting, etc. with long term costs staying about the same as quality will improve less than w/out subsidies, increasing maint. and service costs due to, among other things, crappy vendors still being around.

IMO, subsidies by gov. fooling with free enterprise via the tax system, or any other source of largess skews the market and overall does more harm than good. I slows progress.

Had there been no tax incentives (the U.S. ITC), the technology of solar energy, particularly cost reductions via process and mfg. improvements would be further along by now as solar would be straining against the fossil fuel competition without benefit the gov. push the tax credits provide.

Basically, solar would need to get strong or die. If a technology cannot stand on its own and compete, then it cannot, in the long run, help society. Free market Darwinism if you like. Or maybe like adult children living in their parents basement and being enabled to, in effect, become house pets.

The U.S. tax rebates were never about end users anyway. They allow producers and vendors to, in effect, raise prices 30%, garner a 30% extra profit, and sell a phony save story at taxpayers' expense.

It's a moot point, but I suspect if tax credits never existed, bottom line, 1st cost prices for solar would be somewhat higher than they are (but nowhere near 30 % higher), and residential installs would be fewer, but the product would be more efficient and the quality of the equipment and the services would be higher making the overall bang for the buck - the long term cost effectiveness - greater. In that sense and to the degree I'm correct in my speculation, R.E. and particularly solar would be farther along in meeting the goal of making things better for the planet.

Worse, that easy profit allows vendors and others who could not, cannot and are not savvy or smart enough to operate without the inflated profits the tax credits allow to continue to provide less than the best product and service. If/when tax credits end, those folks will be the first casualties.

BTW, thanks for the classy troll reference. I'll return the compliment and wonder if you are a solar troll.

FWIW, I probably forget more about solar energy than you'll know for some time to come. I bet I've also done more for it than some over the last 40 years or so. I've also spent an engineering career around and designing power producing equipment and energy systems both conventional and alternate energy powered, while on the side trying to clean up the drivel and spoor from the self indulged, hypocritical treehuggers who usually only make serious attempts at improvements in R.E. more difficult.

My apologies to those treehuggers who do not fit my above characterization.

As usual, take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.