how we can get better solution

[jay]

why solar system is costlier in among other renewable energy?


In india 7.2 cr rupees will come to build a wind mill which gives 1MVh.the same energy if we are going for solar it will comes around 9cr.




Is there any equipment which can measure the solar panel capacity ?

[russ]

Hi Jay,
Comparing the costs between types of systems is difficult - a 1 mW wind turbine will probably put out 350 kW annual average with best wind conditions. The balance of the time the wind isn't blowing adequately, maintenance etc.

For measuring sunlight you use a pyranometer. I have a Davis weather station that I record - links for a pyranometer:

1) http://www.ambientweather.com/gedbtu1300.html
2) http://www.microcircuitlabs.com/SDL-1.htm#new_enclosure pyranometer kit or complete
3) Daystar meter http://www.zianet.com/daystar/solarmeter.html


Russ

[mountain]

Cost-payback is the absolute measure of the effectiveness of any alternate fuel energy solution for home, institute or workplace.

As an electrician and an electronics technician I have installed many solar PV systems for remote communications & environmental stations. The stuff is expensive! Payback time may be well beyond infinity (>10 yrs) for a home-owner at today's prices for energy and PV materials.

As a home-owner, I would not yet waste my available solar-harvesting real-estate on PV, but will stick to solar-thermal... the payback for ST is at least x10 quicker than PV. Since I live in Canada, I need heat. Payback for ST is reasonable (<5 yrs)

As a utility manager, the payback is mightily in favor of conservation & building management, although I will be pushing ST pool-heating for our outdoor pools. Measuring results is what it's all about. Everyone should do it!

Often folks seem determined to peruse a energy project with blind enthusiasm, not caring that payback time is well over infinity. To me this is unethical, because they are supporting nonviable technologies & business. These are displacing viable technology businesses & confusing consumers... that want to opt green. Going green is wonderful... it should be rewarding. The payback MUST be there. Show me the $$$.

[Sunking]

Very well said Mountain. You could also include energy cost in terms of manufacturing and competitiveness. You will not have a job or stay in biz if your competitor only pays 1/10th of energy cost to make their product.

[jay]

Hi Jay,
Comparing the costs between types of systems is difficult - a 1 mW wind turbine will probably put out 350 kW annual average with best wind conditions. The balance of the time the wind isn't blowing adequately, maintenance etc.

For measuring sunlight you use a pyranometer. I have a Davis weather station that I record - links for a pyranometer:

1) http://www.ambientweather.com/gedbtu1300.html
2) http://www.microcircuitlabs.com/SDL-1.htm#new_enclosure pyranometer kit or complete
3) Daystar meter http://www.zianet.com/daystar/solarmeter.html


Russ

Dear Russ,


Thanks for the supports as I have no sufficient knowledge in solar , your valid information helps me lot

thanks
jay

[jay]

Cost-payback is the absolute measure of the effectiveness of any alternate fuel energy solution for home, institute or workplace.

As an electrician and an electronics technician I have installed many solar PV systems for remote communications & environmental stations. The stuff is expensive! Payback time may be well beyond infinity (>10 yrs) for a home-owner at today's prices for energy and PV materials.

As a home-owner, I would not yet waste my available solar-harvesting real-estate on PV, but will stick to solar-thermal... the payback for ST is at least x10 quicker than PV. Since I live in Canada, I need heat. Payback for ST is reasonable (<5 yrs)

As a utility manager, the payback is mightily in favor of conservation & building management, although I will be pushing ST pool-heating for our outdoor pools. Measuring results is what it's all about. Everyone should do it!

Often folks seem determined to peruse a energy project with blind enthusiasm, not caring that payback time is well over infinity. To me this is unethical, because they are supporting nonviable technologies & business. These are displacing viable technology businesses & confusing consumers... that want to opt green. Going green is wonderful... it should be rewarding. The payback MUST be there. Show me the $$$.

Dear mountain,

Well statement, As in Indian telecoms now planned to expand solar or other renewable energy for the operation . now its seems lots of opening for solar projects

we are planned not even solar, hybrid solutions like wind, bio gas plants or combination of all ,

only for solar operations our aim is to control the cost into 9lakhs and give energy atleast 12 hours per day

in telcoms our requirement will be

22 Amps,48v, battery bank size will be 400Ah to 600 Ah . 30% our tower height may be above 50 mtrs and its weight 12 T, so that case we are planned for hybrid operations like putting small wind mill mounted in the tower itelf .

what about you thing solar panel which produce energy in night.


regards
jay

[russ]

Hi Jay,

Already made my comment about solar at night - no good

Wind turbine inside of the tower - a really stupid idea that a French architectural team won awards for. The people giving the award had no idea about anything but they were the screwball green type that fall for anything.

A windmill on top of a tower has a chance - depending on local wind conditions and geography.

A windmill inside a tower is even worse that a VAWT which don't work.

Russ

[jay]

Hi Jay,
Comparing the costs between types of systems is difficult - a 1 mW wind turbine will probably put out 350 kW annual average with best wind conditions. The balance of the time the wind isn't blowing adequately, maintenance etc.

For measuring sunlight you use a pyranometer. I have a Davis weather station that I record - links for a pyranometer:

1) http://www.ambientweather.com/gedbtu1300.html
2) http://www.microcircuitlabs.com/SDL-1.htm#new_enclosure pyranometer kit or complete



If a panel manufature is saying that this panel i
3) Daystar meter http://www.zianet.com/daystar/solarmeter.html


Russ

Dear Russ,

Suppose a manufacture is telling that his panel is of 40w how we can make sure that this is of 40w? using pyranometer we can get the details of measuring the sun light


Thanking you,
Jay

[russ]

Hi Jay,

PV -
For an off grid system - for energy stored and then used from the battery bank you can assume about 50% of the panel rating so the 40 watt panel will actually provide you approximately 20 usable watts. If you have 4 hours of good sun then 80 watts and naturally, for 8 hours of good sun 160 watts.

The panel is rated at 40 watts under 1000 watts of insolation which is a standard test condition - you receive that amount for a short period of time each beautiful day. Actual insolation will be between 600 and 800 watts/m2.

I believe the New Delhi area shows about 6000 watts/m2/day annual average. Maybe 80 to 85% of that is collectable. The early and late hours are of little use - I find that 85% of the insolation value is probably usable. That is assuming full sun with no shading, hills or other obstructions.

Wind -
For the wind turbine (I don't mean one inside a tower as I consider that useless except as an ornament) you take the name plate rating of say 1 kW * a capacity factor that may range from a maximum of 35% down to as low as 10% (or even lower) * 8760 hours.

1000*.35*8760 = 3000 approximately
1000*,1*8760 = 1000 approximately

That is assuming a tower of adequate height to get into good wind and winds of the velocity the turbine was rated at. Most small turbine name plate ratings are at approximately 12 meters/second wind speed which happens to be unusual and storm conditions - it is a BS rating. You have to see their power curve and have actual wind speed measurements for the proposed location to guesstimate the potential output.

For the turbine that would provide between 1000 and 3000 kW power supplied to the battery bank - then you have the losses associated with the batteries etc. In too many cases the actual annual output comes to near zero - the smaller turbines are notorious for being problematic.

Small wind is, for most locations, one big hoax. Commercial wind uses those tall towers for a very good reason. The VAWT type are 99,9% hoax, despite what the manufacturers have convinced themselves of.

Russ

[russ]

For testing a panel - not to easy to create the conditions of the test lab.

If it is a major manufacturer then people accept the name plate as true.

If it is a small company then you have no idea. It is 100% recommended to go with a company with a name behind it - Sanyo, Sharp, BP, Kyocera and many others including some of the Chinese manufacturers.

If it is someone just starting up - I would forget buying from the party.

Russ

[Sunking]

I do a lot of Telecom work, and I doubt seriously you are going to put a wind turbine on the tower. The structural requirements for tower loading are just beyond economical justification, not too mention degrades the radio service quality.

Several wireless telephone companies in the USA do use solar PV for remote cell sites in the desert southwest, but they are very limited and require quite large systems and very expensive to install and operate.

[russ]

Sounds nice and green though.

I really liked the plan for a VAWT inside of electric transmission towers - best joke of the year!

After posting less than complimentary comments about the concept one of the 'inventors' who were architects contacted me.

He was pleasant but simply had no idea. No idea of wind flow through a tower, no idea that no one has yet built a successful VAWT, no idea that turbines need to be at height to get into the wind, no idea that transmission towers are not normally placed in the strong wind areas if avoidable, no idea of the cost of connecting to the grid at each tower, no idea except that it sounded neat and won some architects award. No idea of a few dozen other minor problems either.

At the time I was under the illusion that architects were real engineers. I had never paid attention and just assumed they were civil engineers plus. Now I know that architect is another name for artist.

Russ

[jay]

For testing a panel - not to easy to create the conditions of the test lab.

If it is a major manufacturer then people accept the name plate as true.

If it is a small company then you have no idea. It is 100% recommended to go with a company with a name behind it - Sanyo, Sharp, BP, Kyocera and many others including some of the Chinese manufacturers.

If it is someone just starting up - I would forget buying from the party.

Russ

Thanks Russ,
will follow your instruction and advise for the betterment of project.Wishing you and all the members in this forum
Happy new year


Regards,
jay

Regards,
Jay