Install nightmare - Breech of contract -- what do we do?

[peakbagger]

Well you take your chances on the internet, you asked for opinions and what I gave you was my opinion. NH is big state and I expect I have no clue as to who is installing your system as I am a decidedly rural part of the state, the Mt Washington observatory is a local call.

I will let your legal council review the language. Usually in a contract, I would go by the specific equipment installed versus the nominal installed wattage but others may disagree.

Realistically what you seem to be most concerned with is how well the system output will offset your yearly usage. The problem is unless they supplied you all the details on how they sized the system or made a guarantee that it would generate so many Kilowatt hours per year there is no guarantee you will offset all your usage. The output of a system will vary from year to year and hopefully they put some margin in to account for the variation. If you now truly are retired not by choice, your usage is most likely going to change significantly anyhow, hopefully less as no need to get up early in the morning in the winter and get ready to go to work in the dark.

I am not aware of any sizing program that deals with inverter clipping due to increased cold weather production and increased sun insolation due to sun reflecting off of snow. I expect the assumption is that those bonus days makes up for a year like last winter where there were days on end with no sun. Enphase has published economic studies justifying the use of a inverter rated for less than the panel rating, I would much rather see an independent study. I do know from personal experience that on a sunny day in winter I lose generation on one of my systems as the inverter clips due the panels operating above nameplate while my other system with an oversized inverter cranks out 10% over the nameplate of the panels. Folks that do not routinely see -10 deg F temps may not notice it. The clipping effect only happens in cold winter weather it has zero impact on summer production.

With respect to panel size many companies have one physical dimension panel with 4 or 5 part numbers, they sort them for efficiency at the factory and charge a premium for the more efficient units. Unless there is not enough room on the roof there really is no good reason to buy the higher efficiency panels. LG makes several different models and configurations so I expect they jumped models on your.

If a manufacturer sells B spec panels, the ways of marking them vary. The ones I have seen are permanently marked on the nameplate. Since LGs are imported they may not import B specs. Some companies trash them and a third party put them back together and warrants under their own name.

[Ian S]

A couple of comments. I agree with Robert1234 that 29 270 watt panels installed for the price of 26 295 watt panels is a reasonable solution to your predicament. Note that means you should not have to pay extra for the three additional 270 watt panels. As for the clipping in cold clear weather, that is an issue but it is offset to a degree by the fact that in non-clipping conditions, the higher wattage panels will out-produce the lower wattage ones. How that all works out will be a complicated function of your location, weather conditions, and physical installation parameters.

I very much doubt you got "B" panels. What you did get are discontinued ones. As peakbagger states, it is neither here nor there - panel models are discontinued all the time. I'd suggest it might be more important to get the system up and running rather than wait months to get some non-discontinued panel which will wind up being discontinued within a year after you install it. Start your utility savings NOW! I don't know about your utility rate structure but because my system was nearly six months late, I paid hundreds of extra $$ in utility costs that I will never get back.

Getting an attorney involved is apt to be far more costly - in both $$ and ruffled feathers - than reaching an amicable settlement with the installer. You really don't want sour relations with the installer if you are going to rely on them for warranty service. Maybe the installer could also throw in an extra goodie or two for good customer relations. Best of luck.

[ZoNiE]

A couple of comments. I agree with Robert1234 that 29 270 watt panels installed for the price of 26 295 watt panels is a reasonable solution to your predicament. Note that means you should not have to pay extra for the three additional 270 watt panels. As for the clipping in cold clear weather, that is an issue but it is offset to a degree by the fact that in non-clipping conditions, the higher wattage panels will out-produce the lower wattage ones. How that all works out will be a complicated function of your location, weather conditions, and physical installation parameters.

I very much doubt you got "B" panels. What you did get are discontinued ones. As peakbagger states, it is neither here nor there - panel models are discontinued all the time. I'd suggest it might be more important to get the system up and running rather than wait months to get some non-discontinued panel which will wind up being discontinued within a year after you install it. Start your utility savings NOW! I don't know about your utility rate structure but because my system was nearly six months late, I paid hundreds of extra $$ in utility costs that I will never get back.

Getting an attorney involved is apt to be far more costly - in both $$ and ruffled feathers - than reaching an amicable settlement with the installer. You really don't want sour relations with the installer if you are going to rely on them for warranty service. Maybe the installer could also throw in an extra goodie or two for good customer relations. Best of luck.

X2

Ask them to eat the extra three panels to make up for the unexpected and undisclosed change and leave it at that. If you want more later, add another string somewhere else. If they balk and ask you to pay for them, basically tell them that you only will pay for them if they were all the original 290W as the contract states. That should end that discussion pretty quickly. Hope you saved the boxes...

[Silver_Is_Money]

From what I'm seeing while searching for panels, its almost as if todays current production panel is tomorrows discontinued panel. They don't seem to stay current for very long. I agree with the others who are advising that you stick with the 29 panels as installed, but refuse to pay for the extra 3 panels.

[Bonnie]

If you want more later, add another string somewhere else.

That's the problem. I guess haven't conveyed it well. There really isn't anyplace else to add more. The roof is L-shaped. The South side (Azimuth 180.1%) is up higher. The lower east-west is blocked by neighbors trees part of the day, and the higher roofline the rest of the day. Unshaded is about 20%. The front yard is mostly leech field and driveway. The back yard is totally shaded by the rear neighbor's trees. A ground mount would be right in the middle of the yard, with the shade from the trees and the shade from the house interfering with it. The only unshaded area is the north side of the roof. We don't have any other options that make sense.

[Silver_Is_Money]

As time moves forward, and appliances, etc... become more efficient, when you replace todays users with more efficient future users, you may find that you will no longer need additional panel output.

[ZoNiE]

That's the problem. I guess haven't conveyed it well. There really isn't anyplace else to add more. The roof is L-shaped. The South side (Azimuth 180.1%) is up higher. The lower east-west is blocked by neighbors trees part of the day, and the higher roofline the rest of the day. Unshaded is about 20%. The front yard is mostly leech field and driveway. The back yard is totally shaded by the rear neighbor's trees. A ground mount would be right in the middle of the yard, with the shade from the trees and the shade from the house interfering with it. The only unshaded area is the north side of the roof. We don't have any other options that make sense.

Oh, I think we all got that. There are always options. You may want to build a shed someday... Bang! 6-9 panels on that, More if you make a single sloped roof facing optimal direction. Or use some elevated racking on that north rooftop.

You could always ask the Neighbor to cut down the trees...

At the end of the day, 7.6KW is a pretty nice size. You'll be fine.

[Robert1234]

And the initiation of this thread was essentially - I'm not getting what I contracted for. That should remain your focus... to receive your agreed upon result.

I understand you'd like more power, but you contracted for a specific amount. If your installer does as we suggest and holds price constant for what is now installed that is (in my opinion) not a breech of contract, but rather an amicable solution for all parties based on available goods.

As ZoNiE says, [paraphrasing...] smile and be happy. You'll be fine. Life is good

[OvertheSun]

Legalese

Notwithstanding any state requirements for contract language or permitting, the fundamental question is what did you really contract for? There are many clauses in contract language that could allow the contractor to make substitutions based on availability of materials or other factors - even if the contract specifies particular materials in great detail. Others that would prevent any changes or modifications from being valid if not in writing singed by both parties. And still other conventions or terms of art that would be interpreted in court in ways you might be surprised by. For example, project completion doesn't usually mean 100% complete. It means "substantially complete" (which could be only 90% complete) unless the contract defines "complete" very specifically.

Go through your contract paragraph by paragraph and make a note about what you think each paragraph means. Then go to a lawyer for a free consult. S/he may be able to tell you fairly quickly whether the contractor's action are a breach and what you could expect if you didn't get the benefit of what you bargained for. You are more likely to have a meaningful discussion on a free consult if you do your homework, have specific questions and don't expect the lawyer to read and analyze the contract on the fly. If there is a breach, it is most likely that you could not get them to take all the panels down and replace them with what you expected. A payment adjustment (damages) is more likely.

[Bonnie]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to respond.

We were able to resolve this ourselves, without a lawyer. I don't think any of us are totally satisfied, but we can all live with the agreement.

Before the installing partner arrived with our 26 panels, he knew that they were smaller than what our contract called for. He told us he could fit 3 more panels, but never mentioned the wattage. His business partner quoted us a price for the three additional panels, and we had that in writing. I consider that additional price and the 3 more panels to have been an extension of our contract. I believe the Court would agree with that.

When they realized they could give us more panels, that would have been an appropriate time to tell us that the three new panels were to make up the shortage in wattage. (Although not as appropriate as before they began the install.) They didn't tell us; we discovered it by reading the box, after we had renegotiated the number of panels and a price for those panels, and after all 29 panels were installed.

The installer removed the 270-watt panels and replaced them with 300-watt panels. We paid $3.50 per watt x 5 watts (300-295) x the 29 panels … so we paid for the upgrade that allowed him to meet the terms of the contract. (If he couldn't deliver what was contracted, he should have renegotiated the price before beginning the work or he should have upgraded us -- by 5 watts per panel -- without charge.

I would have done Angies List, and every other place to review this company -- and he even knew it. He missed a great deal of positive advertising … for a lousy $500.

Anyway:

We entered into a "Customer Request for Change" on August 29.
New 300-watt panels arrived Sept. 2
The 270 watts were removed and*the new panels were replaced on Sept. 8.
Town inspection took place Sept 17, 5 weeks after the install began.
Utility company could have been here Friday, but they were missing documents from the installer (We didn't have the approval!)
Utility company did the meter swap on Tuesday, Sept. 23.

At least this has a happy ending, as everything seems to be working fine.

Again, thanks for all of the support and information.

[russ]

Happy to hear it all worked out - the best conclusion is often where no one is really happy!