'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution - What do you think?

[inetdog]

You just stated the reverse of what Sunking said while saying you agreed with him.

I think we can all agree that the article is badly written, and do not need to argue about how badly! We can still talk (and disagree) about the potential value of the discovery while ignoring the hype of the article and the press release.

[russ]

I think we can all agree that the article is badly written, and do not need to argue about how badly! We can still talk (and disagree) about the potential value of the discovery while ignoring the hype of the article and the press release.

100% agreement on that.

One of my big complaints about green bloggers is that they troll university web sites looking at leading edge research and are too stupid or dishonest to understand that there is probably one chance in a thousand the item will ever make it to market for purely technical reasons. In this case the university provided the idiot blogger.

[PNjunction]

..The world of patents is tough business no doubt but the good usually gets through.

I meant more specifically the patent-trolls - those companies that exist solely to litigate and have no product, never intend to have any, and have nothing to lose. "NPE's". Their specialty has nothing to do with technology, manufacturing, or bringing commercial good to the world - only to profit from the system itself waiting in the wings...

[PNjunction]

The Ovonics patents on large ni-mh batteries are a good example; it's one of the reasons the first EV's were not as successful as they might have been (for example.) The general term for this is "patent encumbrance."

Right - unless I'm wrong, one of the issues was that they had a cap on mere capacity - that is, no average person or small company can purchase an individual cell any larger than 10ah. Smart! No wonder the only cells I have are 9.5ah.

But it doesn't matter - I went back to century-old technology with lead-acid, and am very happy with it. The corporations and patent-trolls can duke it out for all I care now. Give me a high-quality AGM and I'm happy.

[inetdog]

Give me a high-quality AGM and I'm happy.

I hope that you are willing to buy one too!

[inetdog]

Right - unless I'm wrong, one of the issues was that they had a cap on mere capacity - that is, no average person or small company can purchase an individual cell any larger than 10ah. Smart! No wonder the only cells I have are 9.5ah.

FWIW, the Ovonic company and its patents are currently owned by BASF. It may be that the momentum has passed NiMh by, or it may be that relaxed licensing can yet change that.

[PNjunction]

You raise a good point - I have purchased high-quality AGM's. Yes they are very small. And they are available to everyone without patent encumbrances hindering my purchase.

Who's to say that based on this experience, that I don't go ahead and hire an engineering firm to install huge banks of Enersys PowerSafe vaults over my global empire as a small player, and not wait for the patent situation to wind down. As a business, I'd have no time for that. Originally my spec was for NiMH, but I found an alternative.

[Sunking]

You raise a good point - I have purchased high-quality AGM's. Yes they are very small. And they are available to everyone without patent encumbrances hindering my purchase.

That i snot true. Look at your battery and I bet you money it has a Patent Number printed on it.

[PNjunction]

Of course - every manufacturer I've seen has patents on their construction and chemistry.

However I don't see them taking each other to court over the basics of lead-acid, making me wait for something else.

I did get smart though - I just patented sulfation itself, so keep those batteries charged boys, or my suits will come knocking...

[inetdog]

That i snot true. Look at your battery and I bet you money it has a Patent Number printed on it.

Note the important difference in meaning between "patents" and "patent encumbrances".

This issue is one of the reasons that key features of things like cell phone protocols, which become international standards, currently require a commitment from the various patent owners to make them available under reasonable and non-discriminatory conditions. Without that, or even with that, any manufacturer whose patented technology became part of a public standard would have a license to print money.
In the past such patent considerations simply caused adopted standards to avoid patented technology and use other methods even though they were less desirable from a technological evaluation. At that point a patent becomes a patent encumbrance.

[Sunking]

Note the important difference in meaning between "patents" and "patent encumbrances".

This issue is one of the reasons that key features of things like cell phone protocols, which become international standards, currently require a commitment from the various patent owners to make them available under reasonable and non-discriminatory conditions. Without that, or even with that, any manufacturer whose patented technology became part of a public standard would have a license to print money.
In the past such patent considerations simply caused adopted standards to avoid patented technology and use other methods even though they were less desirable from a technological evaluation. At that point a patent becomes a patent encumbrance.

I understand what you are saying especially with respect to cell phones. There are two modulation techniques used. CDMA and GSM

GSM is a standard any Tom Dick, and Harry can use without paying any royalties. CDMA is a Patent Protected Technology owned by QualCom. Every phone, Switch, Radio, and phone call made using CDMA has to pay QualCom a royalty fee, and CDMA is the most used modulation in the USA. But both GSM and CDMA are being phased out and will be 8-track tapes very soon. 4G/LTE is the going Technology now owned by Alcatel Lucent and Ericsson from the bankrupt Nortel.

Just like buying a PC based computer whether you use Windows or not you will pay MicroSoft the royalty fee and have it loaded on every PC made. That was Bill Gates genius and claim to fame.

[russ]

CDMA is used in the US mainly - financial considerations by the companies that rolled out cell phone networks - they don't gain that much by changing systems and it would be costly.

GSM is used over most of the rest of the world where the big companies don't get control setup at the very early stages.

Travelling in the US with a foreign GSM phone has been a real nuisance. The cell system there has been based around cities with large blank spots all around - more area with no coverage than with.

[billvon]

You just stated the reverse of what Sunking said while saying you agreed with him.

?? No. I agreed with him; you do need two electrodes and you do get both hydrogen and oxygen. He seemed to be implying that the article claimed something different. I pointed out that it does not; they mention both electrodes. (Although it would be easy to overlook since they are touting their anode and not their cathode)

[russ]

You are correct! Which is why the article says "another catalyst produces valuable hydrogen gas." It requires two.

A catalyst and an electrode are two very, very different things - electrodes is obvious and the same as always.