"Revamping the electric grid could yield huge cost savings, SolarCity report says"

[Yaryman]

Part of that $/kWh tariff is there to help maintain the distribution system. Why should the POCO put the burden on all the other customers that don't generate power to pay for the entire cost of maintaining the wires overhead? Solar pv owners still use those wires to get power when their pv isn't generating. So they should pay for that part.

Unfortunately your $10 per month probably only covers the over head for the office work to track and generate your bill. It does not support the distribution maintenance portion.

Until I got solar, as person living in the warmer area of PG&E, I was subsidizing those who live at the coast and have much cooler summers.
Those who don't use air conditioning during the summer months never get to those higher tiers. PG&E has a progressive fee system on their tier system.

I get that my $10 doesn't pay the complete cost of the grid, if you were to divide the total cost by the number of users.
The thing is, payment for the grid is done by electrical rates, not by dividing the cost of the grid by the number of users.

A single person living in an apartment using $30 to $40 of electricity isn't paying their fair share of the grid costs.
They are being subsidized by the larger home owners with $300 to $500 bills.

Should we add extra fees to those with low bills?

[SunEagle]

It'll be interesting to see if/how/when gas tax revenues are impacted if/when EV's become a significant portion of the U.S. vehicle fleet. Maybe non R.E. folks will cry the blues about the extra tax burden they carry or blame the lousy road maint. on EV driver/owners because someone uses solar/grid power in the place of motor fuel, similar to the way POCOs cry the blues and seem very concerned about how non solar POCO customers are being screwed by POCO solar customers.

The sad part is I have read that some State legislatures are already considering raising other taxes to cover the loss of the gas tax due to higher Hybrid and EV usage

That would mean non EV users will be paying for the roads because EV's get to "coast" down them without paying the bill.

[J.P.M.]

I feel that POCO should reimburse the home owner solar power generators. But for the amount it costs the POCO to generate that power and not the total kWh tariff they charge you for electricity.

Part of that $/kWh tariff is there to help maintain the distribution system. Why should the POCO put the burden on all the other customers that don't generate power to pay for the entire cost of maintaining the wires overhead? Solar pv owners still use those wires to get power when their pv isn't generating. So they should pay for that part.

Unfortunately your $10 per month probably only covers the over head for the office work to track and generate your bill. It does not support the distribution maintenance portion.

This is similar to the additional tax someone pays for each gallon of gas. All that money doesn't go back to the oil company. A big part goes to that State that is maintaining the roads and other transportation costs.

It'll be interesting to see if/how/when gas tax revenues are impacted if/when EV's become a significant portion of the U.S. vehicle fleet. Maybe non R.E. folks will cry the blues about the extra tax burden they carry or blame the lousy road maint. on EV driver/owners because someone uses solar/grid power in the place of motor fuel, similar to the way POCOs cry the blues and seem very concerned about how non solar POCO customers are being screwed by POCO solar customers.

[SunEagle]

Thanks for your "valuable" insights. Once again, please explain the math to me.

How do 3.5% of the users ( solar users paying to PG&E ) suck up the energy costs?
Remember use math. Not something they discussed at the Flat Earth Society meeting.

How much of "our fair share" are us 3.5% not paying vs the other 96.5%.

I am required to pay $10 a month no matter how much energy I use.
How much would be my fair share to support the grid?

I feel that POCO should reimburse the home owner solar power generators. But for the amount it costs the POCO to generate that power and not the total kWh tariff they charge you for electricity.

Part of that $/kWh tariff is there to help maintain the distribution system. Why should the POCO put the burden on all the other customers that don't generate power to pay for the entire cost of maintaining the wires overhead? Solar pv owners still use those wires to get power when their pv isn't generating. So they should pay for that part.

Unfortunately your $10 per month probably only covers the over head for the office work to track and generate your bill. It does not support the distribution maintenance portion.

This is similar to the additional tax someone pays for each gallon of gas. All that money doesn't go back to the oil company. A big part goes to that State that is maintaining the roads and other transportation costs.

[Yaryman]

Solar Users are Free Loaders and Rate Suckers driving up energy cost artificially on everyone..

Thanks for your "valuable" insights. Once again, please explain the math to me.

How do 3.5% of the users ( solar users paying to PG&E ) suck up the energy costs?
Remember use math. Not something they discussed at the Flat Earth Society meeting.

How much of "our fair share" are us 3.5% not paying vs the other 96.5%.

I am required to pay $10 a month no matter how much energy I use.
How much would be my fair share to support the grid?

[Sunking]

I paid 17.4 K for the solar system. I will get 30% federal tax credit. ONCE. JUST ONCE. ONLY ONCE. Not twice, but only ONE time.

Not once, until you use all the credit which can span many years. You have lost the debate. People need housing, People do not need solar. You get a deduction for having two feet on the ground.

Solar Users are Free Loaders and Rate Suckers driving up energy cost artificially on everyone.. What is really going to be fun is the General Elections this year. Minority groups are going to hang their fellow democrats with it making it as a Hot Button item in the election. Seems the poor folks are getting tired of subsidizing the rich luxuries. Utilities and the majority of the public as pissed off about it. Like it or not mandated Net Metering and subsidies are going away, Get use to it.

[Yaryman]

He speaks. Yes, a tax credit is different than a tax deduction.

Would you also say that a ONE TIME tax credit is different than a deduction you can take for 30 years? Or even longer should you buy another home?

Here is some math for you.

I paid 17.4 K for the solar system. I will get 30% federal tax credit. ONCE. JUST ONCE. ONLY ONCE. Not twice, but only ONE time.

Yet where I to purchase a $600K home ( which is below the average listing price in my county ) put down 20%, I would have a 480K loan.

At 4.25% that loan would have $20,243 of interest in the first year. So at a top marginal tax rate of 25% that $20,243 would take $5,060.75 off my taxes.
But wait, all the closing costs are also deductible. Lets add another 10K at 25%, so now I have reduced my taxes by $7,560.75.
The solar purchase of 17.4K will take $5220 off my taxes.

Next year, I will get ZERO, NONE, NADA deduction for my solar panels.
While that home purchase will still reduce my taxes by 5K ( About 20K in interest at 25% tax bracket )

What happens the following year? Once again, NO tax credit for the solar Panels, but once again there is a deduction for the home loan.

How can you compare the cost of a ONE time credit, to the cost of taking a deduction for 30 years?

[Sunking]

BUT when I point out the 20 years I rented and gave a quite LARGE subsidy to those who owned a home and got a tax credit for paying interest on their home loans,

Home owners do not receive a tax credit on their home loan interest. , they get a deduction. Huge difference you do not know the difference between so let me explain it to you. .

Tax credits provide a dollar-for dollar reduction of your income tax liability. This means that a $1,000 tax credit saves you $1,000 in taxes. On the other hand, tax deductionslower your taxable income and they are equal to the percentage of your marginal tax bracket.

Solar receives a TAX CREDIT, not a deduction, and pay no taxes on the energy they generate and use.

[Yaryman]

You used my money and I get nothing in return for it except a higher electric rate to pay for it.

Interesting. Very Interesting. As a solar user I get a very small subsidy from other non solar users that use my POCO.

BUT when I point out the 20 years I rented and gave a quite LARGE subsidy to those who owned a home and got a tax credit for paying interest on their home loans, you have NOTHING to say.

It appears if you ( not you really, but other people served by my POCO ) provide a small subsidy me, you get upset and claim it's not fair.

But if I subsidize 40% of the county by not being able to claim a tax credit for a home loan, you are fine with that.

I believe that makes one something of a hypocrite. ( a person who indulges in hypocrisy )

[SunEagle]

I'm actually not upset. I did use a few all caps to make a point.
That point being the facts are on my side.
Not once did I call anybody names. Nor will I. I'm a better person than that. ( OK,not really )

Ok. Just checking to see you don't burst a blood vessel.

[Yaryman]

Yaryman,

I understand you are upset but I please ask you to relax and tone it down some. Getting upset is not helpful if you want people to listen to your needs. Thank you.

I'm actually not upset. I did use a few all caps to make a point.
That point being the facts are on my side.
Not once did I call anybody names. Nor will I. I'm a better person than that. ( OK,not really )

[SunEagle]

DanS26, thanks for explaining the somewhat passionate hatred dished my way by an old timer.
I was starting to think it was my movie star good looks and snappy retorts that bothered him.

Ok, one day I hear Solar isn't a hill of beans to the POCO's.
Today I found out the appx. 3.3% of PG&E customers using Net Metering are stealing the other 96.7% of PG&E customers blind with our small subsidy.

WHICH is IT?

Speaking of subsidies, remember when I rented for that 20 year period and SUBSIDIZED those with homes that claimed the interest deduction on their home loan?
Did that provide clean energy to anybody? Did those homes provide power to their neighbors when they needed it most?
So while I went to work, paid my bills and rented, you home owners got a subsidy from ME so you could get your tax credit.
REMEMBER THAT?

Remember that 20 year period when I paid for my own HEALTH CARE and SUBSIDIZED those that got it TAX FREE from work?
So while I went to work, paid my bills and rented, you employees got tax free health care subsidized by me.
REMEMBER THAT?

What I don't remember is me spewing venom towards those I subsidized and claiming they were ruining my life.

Yaryman,

I understand you are upset but I please ask you to relax and tone it down some. Getting upset is not helpful if you want people to listen to your needs. Thank you.

[Yaryman]

Yaryman, you have been around long enough (186 posts) to know that if you are on a net metering reimbursement system, then you are being subsidized by non-solar utility customers. The old timers on this forum just get tired of trying to educate people that net metering is not a realistic long term plan for the grid.

DanS26, thanks for explaining the somewhat passionate hatred dished my way by an old timer.
I was starting to think it was my movie star good looks and snappy retorts that bothered him.

Ok, one day I hear Solar isn't a hill of beans to the POCO's.
Today I found out the appx. 3.3% of PG&E customers using Net Metering are stealing the other 96.7% of PG&E customers blind with our small subsidy.

WHICH is IT?

Speaking of subsidies, remember when I rented for that 20 year period and SUBSIDIZED those with homes that claimed the interest deduction on their home loan?
Did that provide clean energy to anybody? Did those homes provide power to their neighbors when they needed it most?
So while I went to work, paid my bills and rented, you home owners got a subsidy from ME so you could get your tax credit.
REMEMBER THAT?

Remember that 20 year period when I paid for my own HEALTH CARE and SUBSIDIZED those that got it TAX FREE from work?
So while I went to work, paid my bills and rented, you employees got tax free health care subsidized by me.
REMEMBER THAT?

What I don't remember is me spewing venom towards those I subsidized and claiming they were ruining my life.

[J.P.M.]

To change (and IMO they need to like everything else), POCs need the financial incentive to do so. A way to hasten that is to use their electricity less.

It seems a no brainer to me that the easiest way to lower an electric bill is to use less electricity. However, without true market competition, prices will not decrease much, and may in fact increase as revenue falls.

True competition however is kind of tough without two separate delivery systems or public ownership of that system separate from generation and administration and things like marketing, etc.

[dc/ac]

Perhaps related : (I don't know, maybe just long winded gibberish)

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/11/9306247/utilities-21st-century

To change (and IMO they need to like everything else), POCs need the financial incentive to do so. A way to hasten that is to use their electricity less. Hopefully via conservation first - then RE - then maybe community micro grids out on the perimeter.

This is getting comical. If they have the same IP or originating IP Address guess what? They are the same person.

Not a smoking gun - just likely.

My style is shoot first, then ask questions.

Yup. Change is good.