LA Times on utility-scale solar storage

[SunEagle]

1300MW or 1300MWh ?

And what mandate are you talking about? Because I couldn't find one for CA in the few quick searches I did.

I'm guessing 1300MWh - but apparently like the reporter, you had a mixup with the units.

BTW - CA already has some significant energy storage in place
The San Luis reservoir can generate 424MW of power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Luis_Dam

And all of that is pumped storage (there's a little water that flows into the reservoir naturally from the surrounding hills or falling on the water surface - but very little - possibly similar amount to what is lost in evaporation when it's full.)

And I'm sure that it could be much much more than 1300MWh


For those predicting gloom and doom for the utilities being able to handle the PV supplied by residential installs:
How much of the energy generation do you think solar PV is for CA (or whichever state you like)?
And how much do you think it'll be in 5 or 10 or 20 years?
And at what % do you think it' becomes a significant issue to the utility because the solar generation is ramping up in AM and ramping down in PM? Or because it's getting shaded by eclipse or storm or whatever?

IMO the % where it's a real issue for the utility is much higher than what we see installed now and what we will see installed in 20 years. Germany already has significantly higher % than the US - and they handled their eclipse without problem (not that it really should have even been a news story IMO)

Ok, maybe not a State Mandate but according to that LA Times article in the first post "Under the rule set by the Public Utilities Commission, three of California's largest utilities will need to install 1,300 megawatts of storage capacity by 2024. The first contracts are scheduled to be submitted for approval later this year".

As for Germany handling the eclipse, of course they did because the purchased power from outside the country and ramped up their Coal Fired plants to fill in the RE offset. Keep your eyes on Germany. Sure they claim that their RE generation covers their peak usage but it doesn't happen every day and for that matter not many days at all. They are set up for a major fall should their neighbors decide to raise the fair of the electricity they import during a time of low sunlight

Until you realize the amount of power a state like CA uses in an hour and where it comes from you would understand that it would not take much to cause a "brown out" should a very large portion of the RE suddenly stop without enough "base" generation already hot and "on line". Now if CA was surrounded by potential power supplies then they could have multiple "back up" connections to swing power in from other Utilities. But CA only has a few states on its' borders and they could be greedy if there is a strain on their power supplies.

CA is also generating less and less of their own power from Non RE sites and purchasing more and more from the outside during the night. They better figure on turning some lights off to save power or they will find out what the North East experience when the grid went down a few decades ago.

[Sunking]

It is kind of sad how ignorant the public is. People do not have a clue what Base Demand is and solar contributes NOTHING to the utilities to meet Base Demand. California has to import 30% of their electricity because California cannot meet Base Demand. If California had generation to meet base demand all their problems and solar goes away. California Energy Policy has failed big time and with each passing day gets worse.

[SunEagle]

It is kind of sad how ignorant the public is. People do not have a clue what Base Demand is and solar contributes NOTHING to the utilities to meet Base Demand. California has to import 30% of their electricity because California cannot meet Base Demand. If California had generation to meet base demand all their problems and solar goes away. California Energy Policy has failed big time and with each passing day gets worse.

Unless you have any hands on experience in the power generating industry or have a close family member or friend to explain it to you the entire technology is like a foreign language to most people.

On top of that you have a lot of half truths and hype convincing people that RE and sun power is "green" and "free". Most of that type of advertisement just leaves out a few (but very important) details and truths.

I have been blessed with the opportunity to be exposed to both solar power and electrical generation for 40 years. Some of the technology is still changing and new to me so I continue to try to research and learn as much as possible but in the end the basics of power generation hasn't changed for a lot longer than I have been involved with it.

[Sunking]

Unless you have any hands on experience in the power generating industry or have a close family member or friend to explain it to you the entire technology is like a foreign language to most people.

That is why the public at large is so gullible and will believe anything they WANT to hear. How do you think Obama got elected? Public was warned, but did not want to hear it. Now look at the mess he has created. Makes you wonder who's side he is on. Certainly not the USA side.

[J.P.M.]

That is why the public at large is so gullible and will believe anything they WANT to hear. How do you think Obama got elected? Public was warned, but did not want to hear it. Now look at the mess he has created. Makes you wonder who's side he is on. Certainly not the USA side.

Not the place for politics, but I'd suggest another example of public gullibility was the election of Bush II, or just about any politician of any stripe. Put them all together and, just like since the dawn of politics, the sum of their honesty and truthfulness is about as much worth as a warm bucket of snot. You want to point fingers, go to the source - point it at the public (including me), for tolerating what's killing the U.S., and probably other parts of the world as well.

[SunEagle]

Not the place for politics, but I'd suggest another example of public gullibility was the election of Bush II, or just about any politician of any stripe. Put them all together and, just like since the dawn of politics, the sum of their honesty and truthfulness is about as much worth as a warm bucket of snot. You want to point fingers, go to the source - point it at the public (including me), for tolerating what's killing the U.S., and probably other parts of the world as well.

I have to agree with you. It isn't just one party or one political figure that is the problem. Ever since the "government for the people by the people" changed to "how can I get elected to reap the awards of political life" the public has been led around with promises to make them believe in anyone who can sway their feelings.

Even after making false promises and getting caught some politicians seem to get re-elected back into office. The problem is the people (which also includes me) by letting others who do not look out for me back into power instead of voting for a person who looks out for me into office.

Enough soap box speeches.

Back to the topic of Utility Energy Storage systems and if they will ever become realistic and affordable.

[Sunking]

Not the place for politics,

I beg to differ, Solar and all forms of energy is 100% pure politics. Obama did not lie about energy. He promised to punish the USA with much higher electric bills. Or did you miss that campaign pledge?

In early 2008, candidate Obama told the San Francisco Chronicle that "under my plan electricity rates would skyrocket"

I believed him, he tried, and is still trying via XO after his democratic controlled congress and senate told him to go pound rocks in 2010.

[J.P.M.]

I have to agree with you. It isn't just one party or one political figure that is the problem. Ever since the "government for the people by the people" changed to "how can I get elected to reap the awards of political life" the public has been led around with promises to make them believe in anyone who can sway their feelings.

Even after making false promises and getting caught some politicians seem to get re-elected back into office. The problem is the people (which also includes me) by letting others who do not look out for me back into power instead of voting for a person who looks out for me into office.

Enough soap box speeches.

Back to the topic of Utility Energy Storage systems and if they will ever become realistic and affordable.

+1, particularly the last sentence.

[DanKegel]

In early 2008, candidate Obama told the San Francisco Chronicle that "under my plan electricity rates would skyrocket"

To be exact:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/11/mike-pence/pence-claims-obama-said-energy-costs-will-skyrocke/

[DanKegel]

I for one would prefer to keep the forum more purely technical. While politics is not completely off-topic, angry exchanges of the sort found on talk radio distract from the mission of the site, IMHO.

[DanKegel]

Yeah, at the moment, 5000 cycles seems like a stretch.

New York is also interested in utility scale storage, but the impetus is reliability rather than solar:

http://www.solarindustrymag.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.15148

[J.P.M.]

I for one would prefer to keep the forum more purely technical. While politics is not completely off-topic, angry exchanges of the sort found on talk radio distract from the mission of the site, IMHO.

Apparently there are some things where we do agree.

[J.P.M.]

I beg to differ, Solar and all forms of energy is 100% pure politics. Obama did not lie about energy. He promised to punish the USA with much higher electric bills. Or did you miss that campaign pledge?

In early 2008, candidate Obama told the San Francisco Chronicle that "under my plan electricity rates would skyrocket"

I believed him, he tried, and is still trying via XO after his democratic controlled congress and senate told him to go pound rocks in 2010.

Opinions vary. Seems we'll need to agree to disagree, at least on a definition or two.

I'd agree that energy policy as promulgated by a government is almost by definition 100% politics - I would expect that - but that's not what I'd call energy in any form, it's just another B.S. form of control.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what electromagnetic radiation streaming from a star - solar energy - has to do with the tawdry slime of human politics.

[Sunking]

On the other hand, I'm not sure what electromagnetic radiation streaming from a star - solar energy - has to do with the tawdry slime of human politics.

JPM with all due respect my issue is the government mandates on public utilities and artificially inflating electric rates. California mandating utilities to build huge battery banks is a good example.

[DanKegel]

Would you be satisfied if the forum relegated all such talk to a subforum called 'Angry Political Rants'?