Tesla Wants to Build a Battery for Your House

[Willy T]

Just checked out the pricing. $3K for 7kWh or $3.5k for 10kWh battery, which can be chained together. This does not seem very economical as a backup solution, however. We are using ~35kWh per day, so the outlay for just one day of coverage would be ~$15k.

Look at the options, buy a Generator, cut your usage by 2/3rds at least, sit in the dark. I am not saying this is a good deal, but some will go for it. In planning a back up you Solar the first question one should ask themselves, are my solar panels going to be compromised in the outage ? If the system is hybrid and the panels could be used , it makes a big difference in how you plan and the equipment you buy.

My plan is no panels producing power worse case and have a more robust back up. Ones location makes a difference and how normal outages occur.

Remember the Powerwall is more for time shifting power for a TOU owner and less for a backup backup is a bonus.

[Dawnweaver]

Just checked out the pricing. $3K for 7kWh or $3.5k for 10kWh battery, which can be chained together. This does not seem very economical as a backup solution, however. We are using ~35kWh per day, so the outlay for just one day of coverage would be ~$15k.

[russ]

There are many issues and opportunities with EV and with PV and they are not for everyone. I hope in time EV and PV become more affordable for everyone and we learn to use the cost of ownership, the purchase plus the ongoing costs of fuel, batteries and maintenance. And I agree with the needs of more nuclear electricity, it seems to be overlooked that nuclear is carbon free and the fear of nuclear is over emphasised.

I saw the same EV at the grocery store yesterday with all the decals - the only one around. Very little solar PV or EVs here as there are no subsidies. The people with the money for such toys tend not to be from the loony left.

[Sunking]

Good luck in Panama. Any PV systems close by on PVOutput? Would love to see what the efficiencies are like for Panama.

There might be some data on PVOutput org, but I do not know of any.

Solar is kind of a hard sell here. One would think being so close to the equator you would see a lot of it. Hydro generation here is plentiful, limitless for now, and electricity is pretty cheap. Couple that with no subsidies or Net Metering and you get no demand. Power Generation is all Government and the government is not going to compete with itself offering incentives, subsidies, Net Metering, and rebates Solar is a liability and is very expensive here. You do see some in remote villages in undeveloped areas. But most of it is on the Islands just off the north coast that is occupied by very wealthy Ex-Pats homes and a few high end luxury Resorts for the ole Hippie crowd to try out the local Whacky Tobacky Panama Red and nose candy.

To the West is Costa Rica and solar is big. Again in remote areas which is pretty much all of Costa Rica. Like Panama, Costa Rica has quite a few Low, Medium, and High end Resorts that cater to the organic Turned-On crowd from around the world. Ganja is legal in CR. Hell there is a whole Tourist industry built around it. Travel agents set you up and take care of everything. Its crazy to see coming from the USA.

[Nekota]

... The issue is electrical transmission infrastructure, generating capacity, standards, and EV manufactures not supporting it. It can be done in a commercial setting like an electric filling station. No need to be done at home, but great need on roads and highways. Until nuclear power plants and transmission infrastructure are in place, EV's will not become mainstream for Joe Public. Only the privileged can afford it today like solar. In the mean time Joe Public gets stuck with the bar tab for Kool-Aide drinkers.

There are many issues and opportunities with EV and with PV and they are not for everyone. I hope in time EV and PV become more affordable for everyone and we learn to use the cost of ownership, the purchase plus the ongoing costs of fuel, batteries and maintenance. And I agree with the needs of more nuclear electricity, it seems to be overlooked that nuclear is carbon free and the fear of nuclear is over emphasised.

I am guilty of being too serious and I need to relax and laugh more now that I'm retired. But I'm moving back to my roots in the Carolinas, where PV and EV won't work for my country location. Good luck in Panama. Any PV systems close by on PVOutput? Would love to see what the efficiencies are like for Panama.

[Ian S]

The unfortunate truth - plus in CA the EV owners get to drive in the HOV lane - even with no passengers.

Oh, the Humanity!!!!

[Nekota]

The unfortunate truth - plus in CA the EV owners get to drive in the HOV lane - even with no passengers.

It is true California HOV access is a factor that contributes to increasing EV vehicle ownership. I don't know why that you would say that's unfortunate. It's a temporary sticker and just like the hybrids, it will expire with time. But at the rate of adoption of EV, it will be many years.

[russ]

Only the privileged can afford it today like solar. In the mean time Joe Public gets stuck with the bar tab for Kool-Aide drinkers.

The unfortunate truth - plus in CA the EV owners get to drive in the HOV lane - even with no passengers.

[Sunking]

I drive an EV and am charging at 3.6KW overnight and it's never been a problem for 4 years. The idea you have to refill like a gas station is understandable until you bring the gas station home.

I own an EV, well NEV anyway. I am a huge EV supporter and know quite a bit, not everything, but electrically I built my own NEV's two of them.

I would bet you own an ICE vehicle too. All EV owners I know own a second and even 3rd car. All EV owners I know are comfortable upper middle class and beyond who can afford an EV and as many vehicles as they want. Just moved from TX to Panama. Sold all my vehicles in TX before moving. Had to buy new ones in Panama so I am down to 4 vehicles today which includes my NEV. What I am driving at is all EV owners I personally know, and even folks I do not really know I encounter on the web own at least 2 vehicle in which one of them is a standard ICE vehicle. Yes I know there are the some who only own an EV and try to convince everyone you do not need a ICE vehicle, they are just wasting their breath and only fooling themselves. EV will never go mainstream until 3 things happen.

1, 300 to 400 mile range windows rolled up. AC running making the inside an ice-box, or heat making an oven with a 200 watt stereo blasting away.
2. 20 minute or less recharges.
3. Be competitive with ICE new car pricing

Until that happens, EV will never go mainstream. EV enthusiast can argue till they are blue in the face. The market has spoken and demands it.

Installation of level 2 at 40A service is bringing the gas station to your home and is equivalent to having an electrical service for an electric clothes dryer. The time I spend recharging is the time it takes to make the connection and later remove and store the cable. It's well under a minute to do both and then the car is full the next morning. You just connect and let the timers do the waiting.

I and everyone else understands that, it is the 6 to 12 hours between plugging it in and unplugging is the issue, not the work involved.

The power levels described would be appropriate for emergency road side charging. There is a level 3 DC charging mode that charges at 60 KW (Chadmo) that the SAE did not sanction (bad move in my opinion to generate yet another DC charging standard). The problem with high charge rates is the charge tapers as the battery fills so you don't charge at that high rate long enough to fill the battery.

It is not a real problem. Lithium batteries can charged very fast up to 80 to 90% SOC. It is that last 10 to 20% that takes time to saturate the cell. Lithium batteries as meant to be operated in the PSOC range of 10 to 90% range. Taking them to 100% shortens life cycles. No commercial EV manufacture Top Balances or charges their batteries to 100% capacity. Chevy volt only goes to 80%, Nissian I think is 90%, and I know Tesla is 90%. That is the only way they can offer 8 to 10 year warranties which has not worked out so good so far. Point is there is no need to go to 100%, it is not done in real world use.

All commercial EV manufactures batteries are more than capable of 4C charge rates (15 to 20 minutes). Well not Chevy Volt anyway. The issue is electrical transmission infrastructure, generating capacity, standards, and EV manufactures not supporting it. It can be done in a commercial setting like an electric filling station. No need to be done at home, but great need on roads and highways. Until nuclear power plants and transmission infrastructure are in place, EV's will not become mainstream for Joe Public. Only the privileged can afford it today like solar. In the mean time Joe Public gets stuck with the bar tab for Kool-Aide drinkers.

[Nekota]

Just because you can charge at high rates does not mean you have too.

Think of EV's you can buy 3 levels of chargers for them.

SAE Level 1 is 120 volts @ 16 amps 1.9 Kw. Painfully Slow
SAE Level 2 is 240 volts 32 amps 7.7 Kw like watching paint dry
SAE Level 2 is 240 volts @ 80 Amps 19.2 Kw 2 to 4 hours still not fast enough for the public but your electrical service in your home cannot do much more than that.

Why there are two levels 2's beats me. Must have been drunk grease monkey mechanics who came up with that one. Level one is cheap, and simple extension cord from any home socket. Level 2 is expensive and requires an electrician to install with a dedicated circuit. Not all homes can use 80 amp as their service may not be large enough.

To get an EV mainstream requires 15 to 20 minute recharge times. That requires an electrical substation with trained personnel to make the connection and clear you out by having you to step inside the store to shop while your EV is charged with a 120 Kw charge at 600 volts and 200 amps. No EV or battery can take that right now.

I drive an EV and am charging at 3.6KW overnight and it's never been a problem for 4 years. The idea you have to refill like a gas station is understandable until you bring the gas station home. Installation of level 2 at 40A service is bringing the gas station to your home and is equivalent to having an electrical service for an electric clothes dryer. The time I spend recharging is the time it takes to make the connection and later remove and store the cable. It's well under a minute to do both and then the car is full the next morning. You just connect and let the timers do the waiting.

The power levels described would be appropriate for emergency road side charging. There is a level 3 DC charging mode that charges at 60 KW (Chadmo) that the SAE did not sanction (bad move in my opinion to generate yet another DC charging standard). The problem with high charge rates is the charge tapers as the battery fills so you don't charge at that high rate long enough to fill the battery.

Your question about why there are two levels of level 2 charging is simple, there isn't any 80 Amp level 2 in practice. Probably the charger in the car to handle 80 amps would be expensive?

[Nekota]

That is cool, I see the Nissan Leaf batteries on ebay. Someone is recycling them. I think they are a weird voltage.

They are 4.1V fully charged per cell. With 96 cells (48 modules with 2 cells/module) a fully charged battery is 394 volts. A company called FreeWire Technologies is buying used LEAF batteries from Nissan and making a mobile charging system . They also could make the same power pack for a home that Tesla has announced.

[Sunking]

That would be a lot of energy in 1 min. At 1 min its almost seems more like a capacitor. Your math was with 3.6v but currently this AL battery is at 2v so I guess hes running 2 in series. What if you were to charge it as 2 batteries? Less energy per cell to charge. What if they charged in parallel?

Just because you can charge at high rates does not mean you have too.

Think of EV's you can buy 3 levels of chargers for them.

SAE Level 1 is 120 volts @ 16 amps 1.9 Kw. Painfully Slow
SAE Level 2 is 240 volts 32 amps 7.7 Kw like watching paint dry
SAE Level 2 is 240 volts @ 80 Amps 19.2 Kw 2 to 4 hours still not fast enough for the public but your electrical service in your home cannot do much more than that.

Why there are two levels 2's beats me. Must have been drunk grease monkey mechanics who came up with that one. Level one is cheap, and simple extension cord from any home socket. Level 2 is expensive and requires an electrician to install with a dedicated circuit. Not all homes can use 80 amp as their service may not be large enough.

To get an EV mainstream requires 15 to 20 minute recharge times. That requires an electrical substation with trained personnel to make the connection and clear you out by having you to step inside the store to shop while your EV is charged with a 120 Kw charge at 600 volts and 200 amps. No EV or battery can take that right now.

[nomadh]

If you understood the physics you would know this is not likely. 1 minute recharge time is a 60C rate. 15 minutes is about as good as it gets at C/4. Beyond that and batteries tend to explode.

If that were a cell phone battery of say the standard 3.6 volts at 2 AH a 60C charge current is 120 amps generating 220 watts of power. Your phone would burst into flames the instant you connected the charger.

That would be a lot of energy in 1 min. At 1 min its almost seems more like a capacitor. Your math was with 3.6v but currently this AL battery is at 2v so I guess hes running 2 in series. What if you were to charge it as 2 batteries? Less energy per cell to charge. What if they charged in parallel?

[Sunking]

Charges in 1 min.

If you understood the physics you would know this is not likely. 1 minute recharge time is a 60C rate. 15 minutes is about as good as it gets at C/4. Beyond that and batteries tend to explode.

If that were a cell phone battery of say the standard 3.6 volts at 2 AH a 60C charge current is 120 amps generating 220 watts of power. Your phone would burst into flames the instant you connected the charger.

[russ]

These AL batteries may be moving along pretty fast. They look possibly low tech enough that if they release some more details we may even somehow be able to make a decent homebrew. If grapheme can be made with scotch tape and a pencil????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWZE2Bh48fM

This shows it working for a cell phone while flexing. Safe and functional even when a nail is hammered through. Charges in 1 min. 7 times more recharges than Lithium.

Unless its just another Obama sylendra lie

What an invalid comparison! I would bet on 10 to 15 years minimum.

Remember Boeing and batteries?