NPR story on utilities fighting back against solar

[DanKegel]

Just call me a skeptic. I'd love to hear more details about fraud induced by solar subsidies.

[J.P.M.]

Is this like voter fraud -- people know it's everywhere, no evidence is required?

Only from people who got screwed. I know a few. I also know a few who, IMO, got screwed and don't believe it.

You goin' somewhere with this ?

[DanKegel]

Is this like voter fraud -- people know it's everywhere, no evidence is required?

[J.P.M.]

How about a specific scumbag?

Not necessary. From what I see in my neighborhood, one's about as useless/counterproductive as the next. Besides, they seem ubiquitous. Wait awhile. One will be by shortly, either on the phone or via flier. When they snag you, remember to tell them you heard about their existence from me. If you run into any ethical solar vendors, please give them my best.

[DanKegel]

How about a specific scumbag?

[J.P.M.]

Um... care to be more specific? And aren't the shysters also being aided and abetted by the telephone system, the internet, and the banking system?

Yes, just as bank robbers are aided by people who maintain the streets. That's a bogus analogy. How much more specific do you need than subsidies make it easier for solar rip off scumbags to survive and hurt everyone ?

[DanKegel]

(Still waiting for one of my posts to be approved...)

I think they're going to keep net metering in name only here in the US,
but make it more like a FiT where you get compensated at some
lower rate. California is working on a "NEM successor tariff"; see

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/energy/DistGen/NEMWorkShop04232014.htm

[solar pete]

Cool Thread,

Re Net Metering, not a fan, I hope your sitting down SK, but I dont consider the NET Metering schemes to be fair. Perhaps I should say I prefer the feed in tarif model or FiT like we have in SA. It started about 7 or 8 years ago and has been wound down as the Solar Industry got on its feet here. Now the fit is down to about 5 cents per kilowatt hour that is feed back into the grid, I think this system is the best way moving forward.

[Ben25]

Green mountain power pays $.20/kWh and charge approximately $.15/kWh. Credits build up in summer, are used in the winter for heating and if there's any excess at the end if the winter, they cut a check. Not a bad deal, but maybe not sustainable on a large scale.

[DanKegel]

Tell the benign part to the people who got screwed royal by shysters who were selling solar and aided/abetted by solar subsidies instead of the last scheme they got out of just ahead of the subsidies for that business or the law.

Um... care to be more specific? And aren't the shysters also being aided and abetted by the telephone system, the internet, and the banking system?

[DanKegel]

How important is EROI in energy production?

Are you talking about the question of whether solar systems produce more energy than is used in their manufacture?
I think the answer there is "yeah, they do, by a fair bit"; see https://web.archive.org/web/20130701...solar/Myth.pdf

Corn ethanol as fuel, on the other hand, does not seem to yield more energy than was used in its production; see e.g.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2010-08-09/new-perspectives-energy-return-energy-investment-eroi-corn-ethanol-part-2-2

[J.P.M.]

As long as they are set to decline to zero over time, they're relatively benign. It's the ones that never go away you have to watch out for.
See for instance http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html

Tell the benign part to the people who got screwed royal by shysters who were selling solar and aided/abetted by solar subsidies instead of the last scheme they got out of just ahead of the subsidies for that business or the law.

[DanKegel]

I also see a lot of similarities between subsidies and enabling behavior that does more harm than good.

As long as they are set to decline to zero over time, they're relatively benign. It's the ones that never go away you have to watch out for.
See for instance http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html

[Sunking]

JPM you are a smart guy, I know from private conversations we have had. Like me you are educated in engineering and understand the physics involved and do not get wrapped up in hype and distractions like a laymen get caught up in and loose site of the end means

So here is a simple question for you. Be honest:

How important is EROI in energy production?

[J.P.M.]

I think he's objecting to net metering where one gets full 1:1 credit for each kwh (it's the sweet deal I have).

That's definitely a subsidy, but one that was arguably necessary in the past to get the solar industry off the ground.

The future holds fewer sweet deals like that, for sure. The training wheels are coming off soon.

I'm a fan of alternate energy. I changed careers mostly because of it.

I appreciate the opinion that subsidies get stuff off the ground.

I also see a lot of similarities between subsidies and enabling behavior that does more harm than good.

I'd like to see the solar industry in effect, get out of it's parent's basement, mature, survive and thrive on its own (if it can).

I'm of the opinion that the solar industry would be stronger and consumers better off if subsidies of any kind never existed.