Calling All DIY'ers....What is Your Cost of Production?

[russ]

I don't have the math for all coal fired plants, but I do have the Annual Report from Hoosier Energy for fiscal year 2013.

Almost all of their energy is produced by coal power. Their cost of production is 2.5 cents per kWH. They sell on average to 18 Indiana and Illinois REMCs at 7.5 cents per kWH. You can see it, they are a public company.

See page 41:

http://www.hepn.com/assets/files/2013HEAnnualReport.pdf

All I see directly stated there is a Members average cost of 69.13$ per mWh -

Without reading the entire document it is not possible to tell what that includes.

[sundug]

My 4.6KW DIY install

Here's my self installed 4.6KW grid tie micro inverter $1.60 a watt total system install step by step- http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...ougEnphase.htm
And here's my Enphase page-

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/dpBj53033

Sundug-29 years in self built passive solar home-25 years DIY SHW

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/Doug/DougsProjects.htm

[DanS26]

Was that including shipping, any sales tax you have, permit fees, and expected replacement parts? All that came close to $1500 on mine.

Personally, I'd call the tax credit a subsidy, especially if I was the guy without solar panels

Yes, all in out of pocket costs plus two future inverter replacements, offset only by the 30% tax credit.

Now I would never install the cheapest parts, but it is interesting how low you can go.

[DanS26]

Show the math then.

Your costs for coal fired power are total BS it looks like to me.

I don't have the math for all coal fired plants, but I do have the Annual Report from Hoosier Energy for fiscal year 2013.

Almost all of their energy is produced by coal power. Their cost of production is 2.5 cents per kWH. They sell on average to 18 Indiana and Illinois REMCs at 7.5 cents per kWH. You can see it, they are a public company.

See page 41:

http://www.hepn.com/assets/files/2013HEAnnualReport.pdf

[russ]

Just trying to get this thread back on track.

I did some back of the envelope calcs and on paper, and tried virtually installing my system from the least expensive parts available in today's dollars. I came up with 3.8 cents a kWh which compares to the 5.8 cents kWh two years ago. Both calcs include the 30% tax credit, no subsidies and no labor. The virtual system was not over engineered but complied with NEC code and safe building standards.

Show the math then.

Your costs for coal fired power are total BS it looks like to me.

[sdold]

tried virtually installing my system from the least expensive parts available in today's dollars. I came up with 3.8 cents a kWh which compares to the 5.8 cents kWh two years ago.

Was that including shipping, any sales tax you have, permit fees, and expected replacement parts? All that came close to $1500 on mine.

Personally, I'd call the tax credit a subsidy, especially if I was the guy without solar panels

[DanS26]

Just trying to get this thread back on track.

I did some back of the envelope calcs and on paper, and tried virtually installing my system from the least expensive parts available in today's dollars. I came up with 3.8 cents a kWh which compares to the 5.8 cents kWh two years ago. Both calcs include the 30% tax credit, no subsidies and no labor. The virtual system was not over engineered but complied with NEC code and safe building standards.

[russ]

Without trying to hijack this thread, I'd write that a very long time ago I formed the opinion that using the tax code for de facto social and economic shaping and influencing a society was, on balance, not good.

Here there is no income tax but a VAT. 8% on basic food items and 18% on most other things. On a new car it will be close to 40% unless it is a luxury care where it will be much higher. Most parties selling goods run multiple sets of books and often can manage not to charge some or all of the VAT.

[J.P.M.]

If we drop the freebie on solar then let's be fair and drop the freebies on everybody. Let's start with the ITC (investment tax credit) then let's move on to depletion allowances.........

Without trying to hijack this thread, I'd write that a very long time ago I formed the opinion that using the tax code for de facto social and economic shaping and influencing a society was, on balance, not good. So, out would go solar tax credits, oil depletion allowances, mortgage interest deductions, deductions for individuals including kids - and most everything else. IMO, what the U.S. and I'd suspect many other countries have now is mostly an unworkable mess, and a platform for abuse and corruption. But, reform of any meaningful sort is so unlikely as to be impossible.

The solar business would have been better, stronger and more viable if it had been forced to stand on its own without tax breaks.

If any of that rant makes any sense, why start a finger point about which darling tax break is more unfair than the one you or I or anyone else happens to favor ?

[russ]

If we drop the freebie on solar then let's be fair and drop the freebies on everybody. Let's start with the ITC (investment tax credit) then let's move on to depletion allowances.........

Different things thrown in a post when the topic is a loser.

Let us start with why the big benefit of leasing goes to leasing companies? Why not to the consumer? It just created an opening for the money man to dip into the public funds.

[DanS26]

When one has gut problems it is a sign of time to go to the loo.

Net parity - drop the freebies the governments are forcing to be paid and it is a long time away.

If we drop the freebie on solar then let's be fair and drop the freebies on everybody. Let's start with the ITC (investment tax credit) then let's move on to depletion allowances.........

[DanS26]

I don't understand the comparison you are making. It sounds like you are suggesting that Poco power at $0.07 / kWh is the same as a grid tied PV system that produces at $0.07 / kWh, when calculated as you describe. If Poco gives you the option to buy all your power for the next 20 years at once, in today's dollars at a fixed price, that might be a fair comparison. In actuality, those costs will be spread out over those 20 years. Assuming Poco rates rise at 3% annually, and you use a discount rate of 6%, the cost of Poco power over the next 20 years in today's dollars is around $0.05 / kWh. So, if by "competitive" you mean that DIY solar is only 30% more expensive than grid power in this scenario, it looks about right. Even your own system sounds more expensive than grid-tied would have been.

Yes, I overbuilt my system from the standpoint of quality parts and the underlying structure. I sourced only USA made panels and inverters. I used Schedule 40 3" galvanized pipe when 2" would have been satisfactory. The structure was designed for tornadic winds. I used top quality IronRidge racking when I could have used a lesser method. Used wire in PVC conduit when direct burial would have been sufficient. Installed a top quality lightning protection system with a multipoint bonded grounding system that probably is overkill. Over sized all the wiring in the house....just to be safe. Installed a plethora of SPD's, on the can, the meter, two in the main disconnect, three in the AC combiner box, three each on each inverter and one each at each DC combiner box. If you think I'm paranoid about lightning...you're right...I know even a small strike can send my entire investment up in magic smoke. Yes, it's insured but what a pain to replace when an ounce of prevention is better.

I like to to keep the financial calcs simple. Yes you can get into discount rates and present value analysis, etc. Today if I'm producing at 5 cents per kWh and my POCO pays me 7 cents then I'm making a profit. If I have to over produce to pay them for renting their grid system as my battery storage....so be it. Oh yes, I did not bring depreciation into the analysis, but let's not go there.

At this point in time for me, parity (ie break even) is the name of the game.

[russ]

I could be wrong, but my gut tells me the wait is not much longer.

When one has gut problems it is a sign of time to go to the loo.

Net parity - drop the freebies the governments are forcing to be paid and it is a long time away.

[sensij]

Well yes, it a derate of 3/4 of one percent per year.

I want to learn how close we are coming to parity with fossil fuel generation. Here in the Midwest the big coal plants produce at ~2.5 to 3.0 cents per kWh. But then they have to transport it to their customers and add administration charges, etc. So to make a profit they add demand charges, etc and sell their production at around 6.5 to 7.5 cents a kWh.

If a DIY'er can build a system and produce at around 6.5 to 7.0 cents a kWh then they are competitive.

I produce at 5.8 cents a kWh. I did all the work myself. That is the reason I addressed the DIY'ers. At least in the midwest, if you have to pay someone to put in a solar system, you cannot compete with the big coal powered plants. Now if you are in states with these big solar incentives like CA and NJ then it really is not market comparable. IMHO, in the long run it's all going to come down to the low cost producers, just like most industries.

I built my system two years ago and I know panel, inverter, mounting cost have come down since then. So, I'm just wondering how costs compare now.

I don't understand the comparison you are making. It sounds like you are suggesting that Poco power at $0.07 / kWh is the same as a grid tied PV system that produces at $0.07 / kWh, when calculated as you describe. If Poco gives you the option to buy all your power for the next 20 years at once, in today's dollars at a fixed price, that might be a fair comparison. In actuality, those costs will be spread out over those 20 years. Assuming Poco rates rise at 3% annually, and you use a discount rate of 6%, the cost of Poco power over the next 20 years in today's dollars is around $0.05 / kWh. So, if by "competitive" you mean that DIY solar is only 30% more expensive than grid power in this scenario, it looks about right. Even your own system sounds more expensive than grid-tied would have been.

[CA_Tom]

Sounds easy huh? It usually takes a person two years of a trade schools and 5 years of apprenticeship to get a decent grasp of electrical codes. Some never get it.

IMO most people don't understand the entire NEC - at best they understand a small section that relates to what they're doing.

I think the intended meaning was "understand the code as it relates to the solar install"
It's not so difficult - sure it takes a little reading and some understanding of general household wiring.
But I'd say there's only a dozen or two things that have to be understood. (ex. 20% rule for end-feed panels, sizing the wires, conduit requirements for DC wires, labeling requirements.)