Net Metering to Distributed Generation Program.

[pleppik]

Yes! It is that crazy!

I'm not fully understanding where the $0.02305 came in??

I figured the power you generate and use on site is worth $0.2305 because you are both getting paid the $0.0865 for generating the power, and you don't have to pay $0.144 to buy the power from the utility. That's assuming you were going to use that power anyway...

This system really does create a screwy incentive to increase your power usage during sunny hours, and I have a hard time believing that's what the power company really wants. It would make more sense to pay you a wholesale rate (like the $0.0865) for the power you generate, whether you use it on site or not, and charge you a retail rate (like $0.144) for all the power you use, not just the power you import from the grid. Or, only pay you for what you export but not what you use on site.

Maybe I really am too parochial and can't put my head around what the other guy is thinking. But it seems that if the utility is paying for the power, they might want the opportunity to resell it to someone else.

[jschner]

So if I'm understanding this correctly:

• For power imported from the grid, you pay $0.144/kWh
• For power exported to the grid, you earn $0.0865/kWh (I assume $0.865 was a typo)
• For power generated and used on-site, you save/earn $0.2305/kWh

That's one of the screwier schemes I've seen, since it creates a big incentive to shift consumption to sunny days. The way to win with this pricing is to take power you were going to use anyway and shift it to when there's excess solar generation. You can afford to be pretty inefficient about this, given the big gap in pricing.

Here's my idea: Install a second really big water heater in front of your existing water heater, and put the new water heater on a switch that turns it on when there's excess solar power being generated. A big tank of water can store a respectable amount of energy, and this way you'll be using your excess solar generation to preheat the hot water and keep the main water heater from running as much.

Yes! It is that crazy!

I'm not fully understanding where the $0.02305 came in??

You are correct - imported power I pay $0.144/kWh. Pretty much nights and cloudy days usage. Right now I genertae about 12 to 15kW a night. It really depends on how late we stay up. If I can cut that in half I think I will pretty much always have a credit from the POCO.

As far as I can tell, the POCO no longer monitors how much overall power I use. I'm sure they can figure it out but it is no longer on our bill. What they do is they have a production meter right after my inverter that monitors 100% of the solar power produced. Whether I burn up that power or send it to the grid, they pay me $0.0865 (yes typo earlier) for every kWh I produce. The POCO receives some kind of benefit from from California or someone when they treat me like a power source. REC credits?

Trust me it's a free for all right now from sun up to sun down. I have as much as 3kW to 4kW to burn for free every day for 4 or 5 hours and I'm trying to figure out a small way to take some of the edge off the night time power usage. I can't do a big expense or anything permanent because who knows if the city will change things again?

And this is so new, I'm not even sure what the city does if I generate a large monthly credit that exceeds all my electric portion of my bill. It's a combined bill with water, garbage and sewer. Does this mean any credits goes toward those things too? A credit is a credit right? That is about $100 of my bill every month. I would really love to be able to test that. haha

[J.P.M.]

So if I'm understanding this correctly:

• For power imported from the grid, you pay $0.144/kWh
• For power exported to the grid, you earn $0.0865/kWh (I assume $0.865 was a typo)
• For power generated and used on-site, you save/earn $0.2305/kWh

That's one of the screwier schemes I've seen, since it creates a big incentive to shift consumption to sunny days. The way to win with this pricing is to take power you were going to use anyway and shift it to when there's excess solar generation. You can afford to be pretty inefficient about this, given the big gap in pricing.

Here's my idea: Install a second really big water heater in front of your existing water heater, and put the new water heater on a switch that turns it on when there's excess solar power being generated. A big tank of water can store a respectable amount of energy, and this way you'll be using your excess solar generation to preheat the hot water and keep the main water heater from running as much.

I bet it makes a lot more sense if you think like the other guy (the POCO). Solar generators are encouraged to use power as they generate it, but sounds like they can't generally tell how much they are producing instanteneously. The POCO tends to get some load leveling, and users can't effectively use the grid for storage month to month.

If you don't believe that, look at it from an entirely separate and cynical viewpoint: Do you really, in your widest dreams, think any large corporation would do anything that would cost them $.01 if there was a way to avoid it ? Get less parochial in your reasoning and think like the other guy.

I bet this may be one future scenario for the big 3 CA POCOS as a result of AB 327 mandates. It values the solar portion at the POCO rate of energy charge, perhaps closer to its "environmental attribute value" , and seems to not place an undue burden on non solar users - two of the AB 327 mandates.

Time will tell.

[pleppik]

Three months ago the local utility switched everyone's net meter out for this new two-way meter that only displays forward power usage. During the day when the solar is producing, the new meter slows and comes to a stop but does not go backwards. Not even when my excess power is flowing to the grid. It only displays one way usage. Whatever this meter reads, I get charged by the month at the retail rate of $0.144kWh. That is my contribution to the infrastructure.

In return now, they pay for 100% of my total solar production from the production meter they have installed. They give me a credit based upon their lowest wholesale power rate of $0.865kWh It's pretty low but again they pay me for 100% of my production, even what I use for my own household. So it offsets things a little bit.

So if I'm understanding this correctly:

• For power imported from the grid, you pay $0.144/kWh
• For power exported to the grid, you earn $0.0865/kWh (I assume $0.865 was a typo)
• For power generated and used on-site, you save/earn $0.2305/kWh

That's one of the screwier schemes I've seen, since it creates a big incentive to shift consumption to sunny days. The way to win with this pricing is to take power you were going to use anyway and shift it to when there's excess solar generation. You can afford to be pretty inefficient about this, given the big gap in pricing.

Here's my idea: Install a second really big water heater in front of your existing water heater, and put the new water heater on a switch that turns it on when there's excess solar power being generated. A big tank of water can store a respectable amount of energy, and this way you'll be using your excess solar generation to preheat the hot water and keep the main water heater from running as much.

[J.P.M.]

Sort of looks like you're getting credit for something like what the POCO claims is the cost of the power portion of the bill for what your system produces, and being charged something like what might be tier 1 rates for everything you use.

[DanS26]

I have three suggestions:

1.. Charge your EV during daylight hours, most EV's have the timing capability built in.

2..Get a Nyle heat pump water heater system. Put it on a timer so that it only heats water 10 to 4.

3. Get an electric thermal storage system (ETS). Steffes makes a great product which has timers built in for on and off peak storage.


That should soak up most of your excess.

[jschner]

Probably not a lot of interest in this but here is an update on my local utility and their move from net metering to distributive metering (DM).

Three months ago the local utility switched everyone's net meter out for this new two-way meter that only displays forward power usage. During the day when the solar is producing, the new meter slows and comes to a stop but does not go backwards. Not even when my excess power is flowing to the grid. It only displays one way usage. Whatever this meter reads, I get charged by the month at the retail rate of $0.144kWh. That is my contribution to the infrastructure.

In return now, they pay for 100% of my total solar production from the production meter they have installed. They give me a credit based upon their lowest wholesale power rate of $0.865kWh It's pretty low but again they pay me for 100% of my production, even what I use for my own household. So it offsets things a little bit.

Here is how the last months bill came out. Mind you this was for January in N. California.

DM=474kWh at $0.144 = $68.25
PM=557kWh at $0.865 = ($48.15)
Plus $14.50 connection fee and about $5 in public benefit and such.

Net result was I paid $39.72 for power. Feb. it looks like I will pay around $29 for power.


Disadvantages of this distributive metering method:
1. I can no longer know what my total household power usage is. Meter only shows non-production usage. Bill shows the same. So I can't even compare what the Net metering would have been for the same month. I can only guess based upon last years figures.

2. In a way it's forced us to use more power during peak times when the solar is producing rather than conserve now. matter of fact I find I'm now turning on all kinds of things during the day like running the pool pump which usually sits during the winter, and leaving lights on. Then when the sun goes down, it's full conservation mode. lol

3. $0.865 rate is re-calculated every year and can easily go down further if the city feels like it.

4. It doesn't pay to be a night owl. Staying up late or when it gets hot outside using the AC in the evening or night is going to cost us. How much? I don't know yet.

5. Everything is reconciled monthly instead of yearly, so no banking power or credits for later use in any way now. No building credits in the spring for use in summer. It's all measured instantaneously.

6. Difficult to figure out if I should add to this system or not to try to offset some of the disadvantages. At $0.08kWh it's tough to justify it.


Advanatges:
1. The monthly $14.50 connection fee and other fees are no longer automatic like with net metering. They can be credited away if I produce enough power. I'm not sure yet if that can be done with my setup and usage habits.

2. I get paid for the production power I use or do not use. I can use and waste as much power as I want during production times as long as it doesn't exceed my production and it not impact me in any way right now. I get paid $0.865 no matter what or until the next adjustment.

3. My swimming pool is clear. Maybe I should get an electric pool heater? lol



So with all that, does anyone have any inexpensive ideas how I can use my excess power during the day for use in the evenings?

[jschner]

Question - how are the REC credits a benefit to the city? The director said at the workshop they were no benefit but in his DG proposal he said it would be a $15k to $20K benefit. In the agreements they state the City owns all those credits. Can someone explain how they work with this not for profit California electric utility? Why under Net Metering they are not a benefit?

[+3 Golfer]

On my house all they have to do is remove the net meter and plug in the 2-way usage meter. I imagine it has two meters in one, inflow and outflow. No rewiring needed. Plus my net meter is not wireless so they physically have to send a guy to my house right now.

I have read the agreements. I'll see if I can figure a way to post the PDFs.

to be honest I'm not sure what you are asking here? I think Tom is looking at daily inflow and outflow of kWhs and whatever that is in a month's time is how they will charge me. It's still not all that clear yet but I think we are getting closer.

Thanks a bunch!

My example was to see if Tom was doing net metering or gross metering. I don't think you need to post the agreement. But, it's still not clear whether the net metering is done instantaneously, hourly, or daily. Daily is better for you than hourly and hourly is better than instantaneously. Tom should be able to provide you with a detailed description of how the meter is programmed to accumulate data and the frequency of data stored in the meter (15 minute, hourly or what) for access by the City. It sounds as if it may be daily which certainly is significantly better than the calculation in Post 1.

[jschner]

One other thought, does the City have the authority to require a solar owner to rewire his once approved metering to put the generation meter outside the interconnection point? Who pays for this? Probably need another service panel with generation on a breaker. What right does the city have to gather data from behind the interconnection point (except possibly annual generation for RECs).

jschner have you reviewed the agreements you have with the City? Give Tom this example.

Load is 1 kW continuous for 720 hours in month (billing period) or 720 kWh.

Generation is 3 kW continuous for the first 300 hours of the billing period and zero thereafter or 900 kWh.

Is the energy part of bill:

(720 * 0.1437) - (900 * 0.0865) = $25.61 ==> this is effectively have two interconnection points, one for generation and one for usage.

(420 * 0.01437) - (600 * 0.0865) = $8.45 ==> this is accumulating all instantaneous energy for the billing period into two buckets IN+ and Out- at one interconnection point.

Someone check my math.

On my house all they have to do is remove the net meter and plug in the 2-way usage meter. I imagine it has two meters in one, inflow and outflow. No rewiring needed. Plus my net meter is not wireless so they physically have to send a guy to my house right now.

I have read the agreements. I'll see if I can figure a way to post the PDFs.

to be honest I'm not sure what you are asking here? I think Tom is looking at daily inflow and outflow of kWhs and whatever that is in a month's time is how they will charge me. It's still not all that clear yet but I think we are getting closer.

Thanks a bunch!

[jschner]

I still need to get clarification but my original thought scenario #1 was they will be buying 100% of my solar production at $.0865 and charging me for 100% of my household usage at $.1435kWh. That is how I arrived at $600 annually. If they did that, it also adds in price tiers.

Now I'm wondering if they will change my meter and track just ALL my inflow kWh such as during the evening and cloudy days and just charge for those kWh and not what I use during production hours?

And are they buying ALL of my production or just my exported solar production that outflows through the new meter? I'm sending another email shortly.

Playing with those scenarios:

I average about 10kWh of use when solar is not operating. 14kWh to 17kWh when it is operating. (stay at home wife). With that, hat would be about 300kWh a month of inflows in the evenings. We get a lot of sun here so toss in about 50kWh of inflows for mostly cloudy days. 350kWh monthly average plugged into the first half of the example:

14.50 + (350*.1435 = $50.23) + (2.85% = $1.84) = $66.57 avg.

Scenario #2 If they buy 100% of my solar production at $0.865
Winter 600kWh = $56.23 My bill = $14.67
Summer 900kWh = $77.85 Credit $11.28

Scenario #3 If they buy only my exported solar then that gets even more complicated.
Winter 600 - 350 = 250kWh exported $66.57 - $21.63 = I pay $30.28
Summer 900 - 350 = 550kWh exported $66.57 - $47.58 = I pay $18.99

So now I need to clarify which of the three ways they are going to charge. If it's the later two ways then the impact is not as great as I first thought. Any other scenarios I might be missing here?

Also, right now under Net Metering they bill me for the $14.50 + $0.41 public benefit even when my solar produces more than I use during the month. In their new DG program examples they include those two things into their calculations.

I'm going to try to nail this down. Anything you guys think I should ask here?

[+3 Golfer]

One other thought, does the City have the authority to require a solar owner to rewire his once approved metering to put the generation meter outside the interconnection point? Who pays for this? Probably need another service panel with generation on a breaker. What right does the city have to gather data from behind the interconnection point (except possibly annual generation for RECs).

jschner have you reviewed the agreements you have with the City? Give Tom this example.

Load is 1 kW continuous for 720 hours in month (billing period) or 720 kWh.

Generation is 3 kW continuous for the first 300 hours of the billing period and zero thereafter or 900 kWh.

Is the energy part of bill:

(720 * 0.1437) - (900 * 0.0865) = $25.61 ==> this is effectively have two interconnection points, one for generation and one for usage.

(420 * 0.01437) - (600 * 0.0865) = $8.45 ==> this is accumulating all instantaneous energy for the billing period into two buckets IN+ and Out- at one interconnection point.

Someone check my math.

[+3 Golfer]

How is there an offset of load with generation in a dual meter system? The generated power must go out through the one meter then back in through the other to get to the instantaneous load.

There won't be any offset if the City is going with what appears to be in the proposal that the Council adopted.

But jschner says the City is going to track "ALL incoming and outgoing power by the minute to my home instead of by the month." So, my premise is that the generation stays behind the interconnection point. Otherwise, the City could simply read the generation meter and buy all generation and compute his monthly usage = generation meter change for the month + net revenue meter change for the month. But based on what jschner says, I'm led to believe that the City still going with net metering but the net is instantaneously (not monthly). The instantaneous Out and Ins will be accumulated for the month.

We have to wait to see what the City is really proposing.

[ButchDeal]

Not how it is connected. Your service connection is the common point between the two meters. If your panels are generating more than you are using, excess power goes back out through the POCO meter.

Yes I understand the selling of excess but in a Gross metering (dual meter) system, all generated power is sold.
2.gif
In this case at a reduced rate. All consumed power is purchased from the grid, there fore if you are consuming your own power you are selling it at one rate and purchasing it back at a higher rate.

If it is wired this way there is no way to use the generated power locally, it all goes to the grid.

[Sunking]

How is there an offset of load with generation in a dual meter system? The generated power must go out through the one meter then back in through the other to get to the instantaneous load.

Not how it is connected. Your service connection is the common point between the two meters. If your panels are generating more than you are using, excess power goes back out through the POCO meter.