Convert thermosyphon to pumped.

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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14995

    #31
    Originally posted by r.bartlett
    just to say I got the heater kit installed and had a good feel around inside the tank. there was no evidence of any scale build up . all seemed clean as a whistle. still looking at upgrading to larger loop pipe and cleaner flow lines.with large radi elbows etc.

    n the meantime i dropped the return pipe so it sags below the level of the bottom of the panel. I read this means this return pipe is the bottom of the cold loop and the panel is all in the upflow..if that makes sense

    . I set the stat at 50c for the electric heater. However the water seems very hot . but we do have a clear bright sunshine days atm.

    I know and understand the principles of TS. It's not rocket science. There still is no clear explanation of why a tank situated higher wont reverse . apart from 'because' which isn't really an answer

    If the TS effect increases with tank height due to I presume 'head' why the reverse effect isn't made stronger too...
    Putting a loop or more tubing to locally change elevation in the line from the tank out to the collector inlet won't get you much.

    Like most aspects of solar energy, it certainly is not rocket science. If you truly know and understand the governing principle driving thermosiphon flow (that is, thermally induced density differences), that's as much explanation as needed to understand why warmer (actually less dense) fluid will tend to stay at higher elevation in any closed fluid loop, and why cooler (actually denser) or additionally cooled fluid will tend to stay at or move to lower elevations. Less dense fluids rise to the top of fluid loops and tend to stay there.

    Think of a pipe loop consisting of a solar flat plate collector with a simple line connecting the outlet from the collector back to the inlet of the collector with no positive changes in elevation between collector outlet at the top and collector inlet at the bottom. It's all downhill, or all uphill, and one size line with no intentional storage.

    Now, imagine what happens when the collector sits in the sun. The collector and the fluid in the collector portion of the loop heats up. As the fluid in the collector heats up, because of its (now) lower density it rises, just like the air in a hot air balloon, displacing some of the fluid above it and moving that displaced fluid upward and "forward", out of the collector and around the loop. As more heat is added, this circulation continues in one direction ("upward"), and all's well.

    Now, thin what happens to fluid temps. in the loop after a sunny day. The sun goes down, the collector and the fluid in it become cooler than the rest of the fluid in the loop, and the fluid density in the collector increases, with the loop volume that was occupied by the formerly cooler (and less dense) fluid now filled by fluid from "above", inducing reverse circulation with nothing to prevent it. As long as the condition exists where the collector and the fluid in it are warmer than the surroundings, and so heat is being removed from the fluid, and the fluid density increases as fluid temp. decreases, the fluid flows "backwards", top to bottom.

    Now, imagine a wide spot in the loop and call it a tank, and imagine what happens when the tank is put in two different locations. First, put the tank directly and entirely below the collector. During a sunny day, the collector loop and the much larger quantity of contained fluid will have been operating just like the situation with no wide spot/tank in the line. At the end of the day, the line, and the tank, and the contained fluid will be relatively warm compared to the surroundings. As the collector cools after sundown, the fluid in it will also cool down and so become denser than the rest of the fluid in the loop. Just like the no storage case, the now denser fluid in the collector will then "drop" into the now lower tank, with the specific volume difference induced in the cooler fluid by the temp. drop being replaced by fluid from the "upper" collector connection (the "hot" connection). While all this is going on, the warmer fluid in the tank at a lower elevation really wants to get to a higher elevation (just like the hot air in a balloon) than the cooler fluid in other portions of the line (like the collector) - and it has just the path to do so - "backward" through the line from the tank "inlet", and up to the collector "hot" "outlet". This reverse circulation will continue as long as the temp. of the fluid in the collector remains cooler than the fluid in line "above" it.

    Lastly, envision a similar setup, but this time with the wide spot/tank directly above the collector. Same sunny day. Fluid in the collector heats up and flows upward through the collector into the tank just like before, same flow direction and everything. Only difference this time is the location of the tank. Throughout the day, life is good and fluid temps. at day's end are probably close to or a bit more than when the tank was below collector. Now, sun goes down, the collector and the fluid in it cools off same as before and, just like before, because the collector and the fluid in it are getting cooler than the rest of the fluid in the loop (including the tank fluid), the collector fluid gets denser and wants to sink. In the mean time, the warmer (and less dense) fluid in the tank, now at the top of the loop is quite content to stay right where it is, and thus acting as a counter to the cooler fluid wanting to drop and initiate a reverse flow. This push and pull quickly results in a stalemate: Circulation stops, or almost stops. Cooler, more dense fluid goes to the lower portions of the loop and wants to stay there. Warmer fluid, already at the top of the loop doesn't want to go anywhere, and for the most part, it doesn't.

    Themosiphon effects or fluid density driving forces increase with relative temperature differences in the working fluid, as well as by greater specific volume (units of volume/mass, as in ft.^3/lbm., or m^3/kg.) changes as f(temp.). For heating applications where fluid density decreases with increasing fluid temp. Storage needs to be above the heating surface to prevent unwanted (reverse) thermosiphoning. For fluids where density increases with increasing temp. (usually not a consideration) tanks need to be below the heating surface. Wwhere fluid density decreases with increased temp. (as in most practical cases, the tank needs to be above the level of the highest heating surface do not necessarily increase with tank elevation changes once the tank is above the level of the highest heating (or cooling) surface. As long as a fluid exhibits a density decrease with temp. increase, a, say, 50 deg. C. temp. diff, in the working fluid temp. in a thermosiphon loop, will produce more flowrate than, say, a 10 deg. C. temp. diff., regardless of the relative diff, in heights between the heating (or cooling) surface and a , i.e. a flat plate solar collector and the fluid height above the collector.

    In a twist of nature, and pretty much useless for this discussion unless considering thermosiphon activity below that temp., but perhaps worth noting, water's greatest density occurs at ~ 3.98 C. or so and becomes less dense both above and below that temp.
    Last edited by J.P.M.; 12-26-2017, 09:01 PM. Reason: Added text/revised post.

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    • r.bartlett
      Junior Member
      • Dec 2017
      • 26

      #32
      When I say "not rocket science" let me put that into perspective.. when I started intensive retraining into air conditioning -after a 4 year apprenticeship at a UK atomic weapons base- I thought to myself "what's in a fridge, it sits in the corner and gets cold?"

      That was in 1982. 35 years later I'm still getting my arse kicked by them.. So I don't mean to undermine the science here or those involved . I agree I was naive to begin with and have spent some time reading (often conflicting) advice but I'm getting there slowly

      I will sit and mull over your fantastic reponse

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      • J.P.M.
        Solar Fanatic
        • Aug 2013
        • 14995

        #33
        Originally posted by r.bartlett
        When I say "not rocket science" let me put that into perspective.. when I started intensive retraining into air conditioning -after a 4 year apprenticeship at a UK atomic weapons base- I thought to myself "what's in a fridge, it sits in the corner and gets cold?"

        That was in 1982. 35 years later I'm still getting my arse kicked by them.. So I don't mean to undermine the science here or those involved . I agree I was naive to begin with and have spent some time reading (often conflicting) advice but I'm getting there slowly

        I will sit and mull over your fantastic reponse
        OK, While you mull over my response, I'll mull over three questions:
        1.) What are you doing that is pissing off refrigerators and causing them to kick your ass ? Does Tenerife have gangs of refrigerators with bad attitudes ?
        1.) Just how does one get their ass kicked by a refrigerator ? I'm having trouble conjuring up a mental image of that one.
        2.) After 35 years, can't they be reasoned with ?

        Seriously:


        I've contended and written for a long time that, with the possible exception of the direct application of the photoelectric effect, solar energy applications are not rocket science.

        Most things solar can be readily understood by taking an entropic view of the basics of what's known about what's going on, and then seeing were it leads. That approach seems to work particularly well, for me anyway, with respect to thermosiphon type systems. That and a basic understanding of Thermodynamics, heat transfer and fluid mechanics.

        So, if not meant sarcastically, I'd question fantastic. Just attempting to do the best I can in this limited venue, and no more than a surface scratch.

        I've found the more I learn, the less conflicting various aspects of a subject become, and also the more aware I become of what is, at the end of the day, my profound ignorance.

        Best practice KISS:
        - Keep the tank above the collector.
        - Keep the piping as straight as possible, running up only once and down only once with no local high/low spots that can and will form pockets.
        - Use generous pipe sizes and as few elbows as possible, and use long rather than short radius elbows.
        - Insulate the crap out of everything except the glazing on the collector.

        With some caution, see "builditsolar.com". Lots of ideas and pretty pictures.The caution being that some of those ideas are good example of a little knowledge sometimes being a dangerous thing.Caveat Lector.

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