Sun Bandit solar water heater pricing?

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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14995

    #16
    Originally posted by C_Heath

    Thanks for the kind words JPM and everyone here. Seems like there is no testosterone like other forums. JPM, I do want to ask as well as any other that may want to chime in. What other items could be tightened up on my envelope as you say? My house is nice. The pella windows are 38 years old as well. Came with the house. Vinyl outside, wood inside. I did notice today that there was no caulking on the outside and there are some seems between the bricks and the vinyl. I did some poking around on pellas site as well as Google today but could not find whether or not these particular windows has or had insulation inside the window frame? They are non gas filled and double pane with the little metal blinds inside. High end back in the day. I will say this. They are quite drafty. Im sure the DUKE audit will show this. Any other things? As for the solar dryer.....I did see what I personally thought was an outstanding idea on builditsolars site. One guy ducted his dryer into the attic to pull the hot air into the dryer to dry the clothes. Is this what you meant by solar dryer?
    For anything I may have contributed, you're most welcome. Usually some of us here are upbraided as a bunch of arrogant, condescending, SOB engineers & all round pricks whose sole goal in life is to feed our egos, apparently by making the great unwashed masses feel inadequate by not telling them how great they are, and by failing to give them the prize they so obviously deserve for the supreme sacrifice on their part of simply showing up, with all that being what really separates this place from the other forums, which other forums apparently don't piss people off as much.

    Anyway, welcome to the neighborhood. I guess opinions do vary. Enough rant. Back to business.

    Often, and particularly with older housing stock, very roughly somewhere between 30 - 50 % of a home's heating/cooling load is due to air infiltration. Leaks around places like doors, windows and lots of other places, generally where two surfaces meet (or actually don't quite meet). Other places are electrical receptacles in walls and ceiling light fixtures, vent vans with inadequate dampers, and a big, but usually ignored leak path around the sill plate. There are lots more, and lots of tricks for snooping leaks - things like smoke pencils, and even saran wrap fluttering or moving in a very slight draft, etc.

    I have a book, long since out of print called "Home Remedies", ISBN # 0-9601884-0-1 published by the Mid Atlantic Solar Energy Association, 1981. It's a layperson's guide to energy retrofits for an existing home. ~ 250 pages and full of stuff that works, and equally importantly, a lot of reasons why those things work. A lot on insulation and reducing infiltration and lots more goodies your mother never told you. Semi technical but in a folksy way. Perhaps your library has a copy. Obviously outdated, but with a 40 year old house and heat still flowing from where it's hot to where it's cold, there's a lot that's useful. At least one place to start. I'm sure there are other tomes as well. My bookshelf has quite a few, but I've not collected as many since moving from Buffalo to San Diego.

    If you really want an eye opener, have the energy audit folks do a blower door test on your house, both before and after it gets tightened up.. See the net for details about the test.

    Your windows are probably OK - it's the frames/sliders and gaps between frame and house where most infiltration/exfiltration troubles reside. BTW: As you tighten things up, try to make the inside surface of an exterior wall tighter than the outside surface. Reason: Provided the outside of a wall is tight enough to keep rainwater, bugs, dust etc. out, making and keeping the inside surface tighter will keep the wall interior space of the wall between the inside and outside dryer by allowing what's probably dryer outside air into the space before the inside are gets there and has a chance to cool and condense the contained water vapor and cause damage. If you live in a VERY moist climate LA bayou, FL swamps, etc., reverse things and tighten the outside more, but that's somewhat uncommon. Check around to knowledgeable (not Larry with a ladder types) folks for local wisdom and common practice in such matters. The energy audit folks are probably such a good source of info. There are some climate locations where that may be less true, but if you have a significant heating season, tighten the inside and keep vapor barriers on the warm side of any insulation.

    To my knowledge, windows that old did not have insulation inside them. Insulating the interior of window frames is not all that efficient. Not conducting frame materials like wood and vinyl or fiberglass with thermal breaks usually do the trick.

    The inert gas in windows is, IMO a rip off. In spite of what you may read, the argon or other stuff in the space has only a bit less thermal conductivity than nitrogen or oxygen (air), and after a few years may well leak out/exchanges with outside air anyway. IR surface coatings can be of some value and may be mandated by your state. I doubt you have such coatings on 20 yr. old windows. Overall, caulking/tightening/up windows will get you about halfway to the same thermal benefits as new windows for a LOT less $$. So much so that on the list of the most bang for the buck home improvements, new windows are usually one of the two least cost effective measures a homeowner can take to reduce an HVAC bill. The other is solar PV.

    On clothes dryers: Don't screw around with venting the outlet inside a dwelling, or drawing air from far away places. First and foremost, inside venting can be dangerous, particularly venting (or not venting actually) a gas fired dryer inside a dwelling.it's also a PITA (pain in the ass), getting lint all over the place. About the only thing I've ever done is isolate the laundry room from the house with a door to the rest of the dwelling and open a 2d door in the laundry room to the outside. Ducting suction from the atttic is no more than a super efficient, uncontrolled and uncontrollable infiltration leak in/out of the dwelling when the dryer is not running.

    My apologies on the solar clothes dryer comment. That's a bit of an inside joke. A solar clothes dryer is also known as a clothes line. Extremely cost effective with some psychologically therapeutic value.

    Overalll, if widows and solar PV are the two least cost effective measures to lower a home's energy bill, and therefore and also very $$ intensive (expensive), the cost of materials to tighten up leaks is one of the least costly and tightening up a home/closing gaps is almost the most cost effective thing you can do. Short of simply turning stuff off, it's close to the top in terms of cost effectiveness. The sweat equity required is a bit high, made more so by the fact that in the caulking and insulation business attention to detail is paramount and (particularly with caulking) cleanliness IS next to Godliness. But, to the good side, none of that expense needs to come at one time.

    Knowledge is power. Get more of the first and the second will follow.

    Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

    Comment

    • Walker
      Junior Member
      • Nov 2016
      • 13

      #17
      I recently did some research on water heaters. As mentioned, natural gas and electric heat pump systems will supply the lowest cost (installation+annual) hot water. While solar will have low annual cost, the initial price is a killer! In general, annual energy costs are in the $200- $450 range. A $7000 water heater will take years just to break even!

      There is a fantastic website with all kinds of water heating tips, this page shows comparative costs of different methods:
      http://waterheatertimer.org/How-much...er-heater.html

      There presently aren't any water heater federal tax credits shown for 2017. There were for 2016, $300 for a qualified water heater. Keep an eye on the energystar webpage here:
      https://www.energystar.gov/about/201...al_tax_credits
      I don't know if additional credits will become available for 2017. Anyone know if anything is coming? Solar PV is still eligible for 30% credit.

      Your power company may offer credits for more efficient water heaters, take a look!
      I really liked the Nyle aux heat pump heater but it wasn't quite efficient enough for the credits from my POCO, (PECO in Pa).
      Just an example, but Home Depot has a Rheem heat pump water on sale for $1600. My POCO offers a $350 rebate, so figure $1250. Would likely save $200/year in electric cost over a conventional electric.

      My best recommendation is to check if rebates are offered by your POCO and go from there. Then determine payback time for the initial cost and annual savings.
      Last edited by Mike90250; 02-03-2017, 03:25 AM.

      Comment

      • C_Heath
        Junior Member
        • Feb 2017
        • 32

        #18
        Originally posted by J.P.M.

        For anything I may have contributed, you're most welcome. Usually some of us here are upbraided as a bunch of arrogant, condescending, SOB engineers & all round pricks whose sole goal in life is to feed our egos, apparently by making the great unwashed masses feel inadequate by not telling them how great they are, and by failing to give them the prize they so obviously deserve for the supreme sacrifice on their part of simply showing up, with all that being what really separates this place from the other forums, which other forums apparently don't piss people off as much.

        Anyway, welcome to the neighborhood. I guess opinions do vary. Enough rant. Back to business.

        Often, and particularly with older housing stock, very roughly somewhere between 30 - 50 % of a home's heating/cooling load is due to air infiltration. Leaks around places like doors, windows and lots of other places, generally where two surfaces meet (or actually don't quite meet). Other places are electrical receptacles in walls and ceiling light fixtures, vent vans with inadequate dampers, and a big, but usually ignored leak path around the sill plate. There are lots more, and lots of tricks for snooping leaks - things like smoke pencils, and even saran wrap fluttering or moving in a very slight draft, etc.

        I have a book, long since out of print called "Home Remedies", ISBN # 0-9601884-0-1 published by the Mid Atlantic Solar Energy Association, 1981. It's a layperson's guide to energy retrofits for an existing home. ~ 250 pages and full of stuff that works, and equally importantly, a lot of reasons why those things work. A lot on insulation and reducing infiltration and lots more goodies your mother never told you. Semi technical but in a folksy way. Perhaps your library has a copy. Obviously outdated, but with a 40 year old house and heat still flowing from where it's hot to where it's cold, there's a lot that's useful. At least one place to start. I'm sure there are other tomes as well. My bookshelf has quite a few, but I've not collected as many since moving from Buffalo to San Diego.

        If you really want an eye opener, have the energy audit folks do a blower door test on your house, both before and after it gets tightened up.. See the net for details about the test.

        Your windows are probably OK - it's the frames/sliders and gaps between frame and house where most infiltration/exfiltration troubles reside. BTW: As you tighten things up, try to make the inside surface of an exterior wall tighter than the outside surface. Reason: Provided the outside of a wall is tight enough to keep rainwater, bugs, dust etc. out, making and keeping the inside surface tighter will keep the wall interior space of the wall between the inside and outside dryer by allowing what's probably dryer outside air into the space before the inside are gets there and has a chance to cool and condense the contained water vapor and cause damage. If you live in a VERY moist climate LA bayou, FL swamps, etc., reverse things and tighten the outside more, but that's somewhat uncommon. Check around to knowledgeable (not Larry with a ladder types) folks for local wisdom and common practice in such matters. The energy audit folks are probably such a good source of info. There are some climate locations where that may be less true, but if you have a significant heating season, tighten the inside and keep vapor barriers on the warm side of any insulation.

        To my knowledge, windows that old did not have insulation inside them. Insulating the interior of window frames is not all that efficient. Not conducting frame materials like wood and vinyl or fiberglass with thermal breaks usually do the trick.

        The inert gas in windows is, IMO a rip off. In spite of what you may read, the argon or other stuff in the space has only a bit less thermal conductivity than nitrogen or oxygen (air), and after a few years may well leak out/exchanges with outside air anyway. IR surface coatings can be of some value and may be mandated by your state. I doubt you have such coatings on 20 yr. old windows. Overall, caulking/tightening/up windows will get you about halfway to the same thermal benefits as new windows for a LOT less $$. So much so that on the list of the most bang for the buck home improvements, new windows are usually one of the two least cost effective measures a homeowner can take to reduce an HVAC bill. The other is solar PV.

        On clothes dryers: Don't screw around with venting the outlet inside a dwelling, or drawing air from far away places. First and foremost, inside venting can be dangerous, particularly venting (or not venting actually) a gas fired dryer inside a dwelling.it's also a PITA (pain in the ass), getting lint all over the place. About the only thing I've ever done is isolate the laundry room from the house with a door to the rest of the dwelling and open a 2d door in the laundry room to the outside. Ducting suction from the atttic is no more than a super efficient, uncontrolled and uncontrollable infiltration leak in/out of the dwelling when the dryer is not running.

        My apologies on the solar clothes dryer comment. That's a bit of an inside joke. A solar clothes dryer is also known as a clothes line. Extremely cost effective with some psychologically therapeutic value.

        Overalll, if widows and solar PV are the two least cost effective measures to lower a home's energy bill, and therefore and also very $$ intensive (expensive), the cost of materials to tighten up leaks is one of the least costly and tightening up a home/closing gaps is almost the most cost effective thing you can do. Short of simply turning stuff off, it's close to the top in terms of cost effectiveness. The sweat equity required is a bit high, made more so by the fact that in the caulking and insulation business attention to detail is paramount and (particularly with caulking) cleanliness IS next to Godliness. But, to the good side, none of that expense needs to come at one time.

        Knowledge is power. Get more of the first and the second will follow.

        Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

        Thanks a million!

        Comment

        • PNPmacnab
          Solar Fanatic
          • Nov 2016
          • 425

          #19
          C.O.P. of ~ 3.0........ Can you show me one of them? Every real engineering study I've seen doesn't get them much more than 2.3. Gee, your attacking the whole basis of solar. According to that, nothing in solar is worth doing. Considering all you need to do is pay for the panels and add $10 worth of electronics, It sure seems worth doing. What sense does that make. People spend $1800 on a HPWH just to save half on electric. Spending $500 on some panels sounds like a deal to save the same amount. Some people in Australia claim the PV water heating out performs their neighbors evacuated tube systems. You are arguing an alternate state of facts. I live off grid for five months a year with 1,200W of panels and a single car battery. Don't think anyone would say I have an excess of panels. Anyone who can successfully live off grid has something to say. I don't do anything that a 12 year old couldn't do. Still, it is highly unlikely anyone that visits here could do it. That makes me sad. I don't like thinking that you are just a regurgitator.

          Just give me a cost per KWH of a bare solar panel and we can go from there.
          Last edited by PNPmacnab; 02-03-2017, 11:50 AM.

          Comment

          • J.P.M.
            Solar Fanatic
            • Aug 2013
            • 14995

            #20
            Originally posted by Walker
            I recently did some research on water heaters. As mentioned, natural gas and electric heat pump systems will supply the lowest cost (installation+annual) hot water. While solar will have low annual cost, the initial price is a killer! In general, annual energy costs are in the $200- $450 range. A $7000 water heater will take years just to break even!

            There is a fantastic website with all kinds of water heating tips, this page shows comparative costs of different methods:
            http://waterheatertimer.org/How-much...er-heater.html

            There presently aren't any water heater federal tax credits shown for 2017. There were for 2016, $300 for a qualified water heater. Keep an eye on the energystar webpage here:
            https://www.energystar.gov/about/201...al_tax_credits
            I don't know if additional credits will become available for 2017. Anyone know if anything is coming? Solar PV is still eligible for 30% credit.

            Your power company may offer credits for more efficient water heaters, take a look!
            I really liked the Nyle aux heat pump heater but it wasn't quite efficient enough for the credits from my POCO, (PECO in Pa).
            Just an example, but Home Depot has a Rheem heat pump water on sale for $1600. My POCO offers a $350 rebate, so figure $1250. Would likely save $200/year in electric cost over a conventional electric.

            My best recommendation is to check if rebates are offered by your POCO and go from there. Then determine payback time for the initial cost and annual savings.
            The first sentence of your 3d paragraph contains incorrect information. Reread the info on your referenced sites.

            At this time and until legislation changes the situation, solar thermal water heating is eligible for a 30 % U.S. federal tax credit until 12/31/2019, and declining after that, following the same schedule as solar PV.

            Comment

            • J.P.M.
              Solar Fanatic
              • Aug 2013
              • 14995

              #21
              Originally posted by C_Heath


              Thanks a million!
              You're welcome. You like our service, tell your friends. Question everything everyone says until you understand what they're saying, including my stuff. Knowledge is the best B.S. filter around.

              Comment

              • J.P.M.
                Solar Fanatic
                • Aug 2013
                • 14995

                #22
                Originally posted by PNPmacnab
                C.O.P. of ~ 3.0........ Can you show me one of them? Every real engineering study I've seen doesn't get them much more than 2.3. Gee, your attacking the whole basis of solar. According to that, nothing in solar is worth doing. Considering all you need to do is pay for the panels and add $10 worth of electronics, It sure seems worth doing. What sense does that make. People spend $1800 on a HPWH just to save half on electric. Spending $500 on some panels sounds like a deal to save the same amount. Some people in Australia claim the PV water heating out performs their neighbors evacuated tube systems. You are arguing an alternate state of facts. I live off grid for five months a year with 1,200W of panels and a single car battery. Don't think anyone would say I have an excess of panels. Anyone who can successfully live off grid has something to say. I don't do anything that a 12 year old couldn't do. Still, it is highly unlikely anyone that visits here could do it. That makes me sad. I don't like thinking that you are just a regurgitator.
                And if I have a heat pump water heater in a very cold climate while trying to get 60 C. water out of it, I'll probably be operating at a C.O.P. of less than 2, or maybe even approaching or even a bit less than 1.0 if I need coil reheat via resistance heating. I'm not saying, nor do I believe HPWH is a good idea in all climates, any more that solar thermal is universally viable. What I am saying is, that where HPWH is viable, a C.O.P. of 3.0 is probably a reasonable number, where a HPWH is a viable option, at least for initial design purposes.

                In general, I'm the biggest fan of solar energy I know. It changed the course of my life about 1975 or so. What I find fault with (and you say attack) is the ignorance and the idea that solar can do more than it's capable of doing. It can do a lot. It's not capable of doing everything.

                People who (probably anecdotally) claim their PV systems outperform evacuated tube systems are, IMO, to put it politely, on shaky ground. BTW, evacuated tube systems are usually inappropriate for domestic water heating in the first place. Not as cost effective as flat plate with more maint. and less reliability. My experience is that the solar ignorant with more money than brains usually have them.

                You may think me a regurgitator. So be it. Opinions vary. Ever measure the output of a heat pump ? I have. Lots of other stuff too. Ever measure the output of your array ? I have Several hundred times and counting. Do you have a solar thermal flat plate system ? I do. Designed it myself, and built most of it around purchased collectors. the system is reliable and fit for purpose. Did you design and build yours ?

                If, as you say, I am arguing an alternate state of facts, well, that's an alternate opinion. My opinions seem to fit reality as I see it based on what I think I know based on experience and training.

                I forgot more about solar energy engineering theory, practice and practical application as well as what works and what doesn't work and why than you'll probably know for some time yet. Furthermore, what I think I know is backed up by a separate career as a mechanical engineer doing thermal and mechanical design of heat transfer equipment including boilers and power generating equipment, and later project engineering and project management . Some skills are transferable to my interest in solar and renewable energy.

                Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                Comment

                • Walker
                  Junior Member
                  • Nov 2016
                  • 13

                  #23
                  Originally posted by J.P.M.

                  The first sentence of your 3d paragraph contains incorrect information. Reread the info on your referenced sites.

                  At this time and until legislation changes the situation, solar thermal water heating is eligible for a 30 % U.S. federal tax credit until 12/31/2019, and declining after that, following the same schedule as solar PV.
                  I had linked to the tax credit page for 2016 since there presently isn't a page for 2017. Non solar water heater credit appears to have expired.

                  Yes, solar water heaters appear to fall under the 'solar energy systems' category:
                  >>(Tax credits for Solar Energy Systems are available at 30% through December 31, 2019.
                  The credit decreases to 26% for tax year 2020; drops to 22% for tax year 2021 then expires December 31, 2021)<<

                  Comment

                  • PNPmacnab
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 425

                    #24
                    Originally posted by PNPmacnab
                    Just give me a cost per KWH of a bare solar panel and we can go from there.
                    Just answer that question. What do you think the cost of a KWH of generated electricity from solar is. Just the panel cost no install, no hardware, no electronics for given average daily sun over the life span. My DUKE costs me 13 cents, one guy says 2.5 cents for solar, what is your figure. At my one location there is solar on every third house. They are obviously using some number that makes sense to them. Subtracting out tax rebates should be just about what solar costs minus installation and associated electronics. So there must be a cost benefit. You can argue how you use the numbers to calculate that. Just give me a number. So far you have not provided any facts for your assumption.

                    Comment

                    • SunEagle
                      Super Moderator
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 15151

                      #25
                      Originally posted by PNPmacnab

                      Just answer that question. What do you think the cost of a KWH of generated electricity from solar is. Just the panel cost no install, no hardware, no electronics for given average daily sun over the life span. My DUKE costs me 13 cents, one guy says 2.5 cents for solar, what is your figure. At my one location there is solar on every third house. They are obviously using some number that makes sense to them. Subtracting out tax rebates should be just about what solar costs minus installation and associated electronics. So there must be a cost benefit. You can argue how you use the numbers to calculate that. Just give me a number. So far you have not provided any facts for your assumption.
                      The cost to generate a kWh from solar varies from a small home installation to a MW Utility sized one. The geographic location will also affect the cost based on the amount of daily usable sunlight. I have seen some recent numbers from $0.10/kWh to as low as $0.03/kWh (somewhere in the Mid East) with the overall cost coming down due to lower cost hardware but still being higher for a home then for a very large system.

                      It is hard to provide a figure for just the solar panel since by itself it won't provide anything without being properly installed and connected to the hardware to convert DC to AC so I am not sure what your question is or what point you are trying to make.

                      Comment

                      • emartin00
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Aug 2013
                        • 511

                        #26
                        I would strongly suggest a Heat pump water heater. I installed an AO Smith one in my last house (And will probably be installing one in my new house). They use FAR less energy than an electric water heater, plus it will reduce your AC load a little bit.
                        They only cost about $1000 and you can get a $300 federal tax credit for them. I'm lucky, here in NH, we also get a $500 cash rebate, so it ends up being about the same price as a decent electric tank.

                        Comment

                        • PNPmacnab
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Nov 2016
                          • 425

                          #27
                          I certainly don't know what it costs. People say 25 year life for panels and I give them the stink eye. I've done solar a long time and paid some mighty high prices for panels. I had to do solar. Also had my share of panels fail and no exchange. Solar has cost me a lot per KWH. Much of that early system has now been scrapped. Based on panel quality and costs today it seems more practical than at any other time. My tow just installed 3,000 panels at the old landfill. They seem to think it makes sense economically. This is nearly direct solar to a water heater with minimal electronics cost. The system is undersized so always 100% of possible generated power goes into making heat. That efficiency and cost can not be matched in anything else done with PV. And it is something anyone can do, a couple panels on the garden shed connected with just a wire. No plumbing, exchanger fluids, no complicated modifications to the house. It is something that could be boxed up and sold at Home Depot for w weekend project. If you want to get into the lunacy of solar, this is the least painful way to do it.

                          Shoot me a price, all solar calculations are crap anyway.

                          Comment

                          • J.P.M.
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 14995

                            #28
                            Originally posted by PNPmacnab

                            Just answer that question. What do you think the cost of a KWH of generated electricity from solar is. Just the panel cost no install, no hardware, no electronics for given average daily sun over the life span. My DUKE costs me 13 cents, one guy says 2.5 cents for solar, what is your figure. At my one location there is solar on every third house. They are obviously using some number that makes sense to them. Subtracting out tax rebates should be just about what solar costs minus installation and associated electronics. So there must be a cost benefit. You can argue how you use the numbers to calculate that. Just give me a number. So far you have not provided any facts for your assumption.
                            For starters, know that I usually don't respond too well to demands. But, since that seems to be part of your other post that I missed responding to:

                            Like most everything else, it depends. I generally start by using the tools of process economics and looking at the application and the requirements and goals set by those paying for the ride.

                            To use one cost or claim one price for generation or what a max. price ought to be for economic viability for all situations is simplistic. One sub set of that type of economic analysis (that is, a subset of process economics) is to find something called the Levelized Cost Of Energy. Depending on how much information is available, it can be as involved or as simplistic as required. In such types of analysis, any cost associated with any method of generating power will be f(LCOE). That's one way to then back calculate the "cost" of a kWh of solar PV, solar thermal, or power from any source.

                            I suspect that's an answer you may not like, but it's the best I can do given the limited space and resources I see as worthy of devoting to your post.

                            If you are still interested in what I may think about the subject, see the literature for more info on solar process economics.

                            Comment

                            • C_Heath
                              Junior Member
                              • Feb 2017
                              • 32

                              #29
                              Originally posted by emartin00
                              I would strongly suggest a Heat pump water heater. I installed an AO Smith one in my last house (And will probably be installing one in my new house). They use FAR less energy than an electric water heater, plus it will reduce your AC load a little bit.
                              They only cost about $1000 and you can get a $300 federal tax credit for them. I'm lucky, here in NH, we also get a $500 cash rebate, so it ends up being about the same price as a decent electric tank.
                              which AO smith one is $1000? the 80 gallon is $1975

                              Comment

                              • PNPmacnab
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 425

                                #30
                                25 years doesn't work for me, I got maybe 10. Wife says when I die she is going to let the summer home go for taxes. I don't care, I'm dead. Not a bad neighborhood, dentist on one side and anesthesiologist on the other, couple houses down a pediatrician. Current system cost less than wife's summer wine bill for four years. Don't feel I pissed my money away.

                                Do you have any solar? Did you just waste your money? I'm sorry, you just can't defend your position. All I hear is, "I got a really big brain." Supplemental water heating water with PV is really low hanging fruit. Just name something that is more efficient and cost effective that can be done with PV. KWH cost doesn't even matter, just name something. You are just retelling something that was true ten years ago. It just might be you don't understand what I am saying. That is a possibility. For a logical guy you got nothing.

                                Comment

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