Brittle tile roof install problems

[AZstars]

I have an actual install scheduled by the largest local Sunpower dealer next week and suddenly am facing 1/3 cost increase due to the roofing issues.
The house is built in 1997. I have bought it this year and have not discovered any roof problems (yet?). The company did an install on a nearby house last year, same model and type of brittle "Mexican" clay S tile.
The owner, who referred me to the installer, told me that the install was problematic and the company had some additional expense which they absorbed.
His tiles were only removed in the area of the panels and around, asphalt shingles applied, standoffs put on (I suppose with flashing), modules installed and tiles reinstalled, I would say completely.

When the company sent the field crew to inspect my roof 4 months ago, they roamed on the roof and broke immediately many tiles. They made not about this and told me the tiles will be replaced with the actual install. They sent a roofer they outsource the roofing to for a flat fee on each install to made a pre-install inspection. On a side, he complained how the company tries to make money off him. I presume due to higher complexity of this job, he wants more rewards and was up-selling (??) me his services with justification, that if he shall give his 2 year warranty it has to be done in his way:

On the sides of the roof, where any panels will be installed (so not only below and around the panels), completely remove the tiles up to the hip, overlap a 15# paper over the hip and cover with it the whole exposed roof, apply shingle roll at the width of the panel array TOP DOWN, i.e. from the hip down to the bottom edge, install panels, and then he will reapply the tiles to the edge of the panels (only).

I searched the board for related discussion and attached excerpts at the end of my posting. It seems to me that he is over-engineering the solution with covering the whole roof with a new paper and applying the asphalt shingles top-down, not only below and close around the panels.
To some extent as a layman I understand that this would be the most bomb proof solution, but I would had to pat him $5k for this "extra" work.
The company is quiet, not a peep, kind of like that we have to sort it out with the roofer.

The language in the contract related to my issue:
- they guarantee the roof to 4" around the roof penetrations for 2 years,
- they can drop the contract with me for what ever reason
- they may ask for conditions to be rectified before the install.

They sure also realize that I am one of the last who got the excellent prepaid lease before the prices went up. They may just push me to swallow the cost. I can get in posturing that such price increase negates the deal for me and pretend to walk away, but they possibly know that I would not.
I can try to make some side cash deal with the roofer to bring the cost down. Least expensive ($0)? would be to insist that the work is performed in a similar way as on my neighbor roof and how it was described in the work order I glanced over the roofer's shoulder.

My main question is whether the offered re-roofing is not necessary and how to deal with the installer if I would like to go the re-roofing way. I have no insight how much the flat fee is for the roofer...
Also if you have any suggestion re the language in the roofing proposal.



My current proposal language
Pitched Roof:
1-Remove existing clay tile, to clean deck.
2-Remove existing hip & ridge mud.
3-Remove existing hip & ridge post.
4-Clean up all debri before dry-in.
5-Install new 15# underlayment (over existing paper)
6-Install new shingle 3-tab (Terracotta or Copper Color)
7-Re-Install clay tile back in place (arround array area)
8-Re-Install hip & ridge mud back in place.
9-Re-Install hip & ridge post back in place.
10-Replace High Dormer Vent Attic Ventilation for a low profile vent if needed. This will be at an extra charge.
11-Clean up trash and haul away all debris



Board excerpt below:


In http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...blem-for-Solar
When installing solar panels on a tile roof they will be removed, and the standoffs are attached directly to the underlying rafters. Then the standoffs are flashed just like any other vent so they will be waterproofed.
If your roof tiles are really fragile (i.e. antique spanish mission tiles, etc.) the contractor (or you if you are doing it yourself) should probably consider having a roofer come out and remove the tiles under the area where the array is going. Commonly, the roofer will then lay comp shingles under the array and then replace the tiles around the array once it is installed for a clean appearance.
Generally..
Remove the tile, seal a mounting device to roof, put a threaded rod through a hole in the tile and into the mounting device and the rails.
or
Cut a big hole and put a standoff through it, sealed and with a flashing.
or
Remove the tiles in the area, install shingle roof in that section, reinstall tiles around the border and it blends in.

---------------------------------

The roof is a definite consideration when doing solar and it largely depends of the age and type of the roof. If it's a tile roof there is usually no need to replace the entire roof but if the existing roof is ten years old then the paper under the tile may need to be replaced but the original tile roof re-installed. Unless the roof is clay tile and not cement than most of the time you replace the area where the array goes with a composition roof. And as King said if you have a comp roof that has less than 20 years on the waranty it take it down to the sheathing (if there is any) and replace that sucker


If you have a Spanish tile roof there is extra consideration about leaking. Here there is a trend toward replacing the area to be covered by solar panels with a composite roof, and then placing back the tiles around the pv panels for aesthetic purposes. The claim is that this is less prone to leaks...

Tile roof applications if roof is already tiled, is better to remove all tiles then apply bitumen composite, then feet anchors, use butyl tape for thear anchoring, then apply tar over anchor heads for additional water proofing.

I would recommend a flashing as opposed to the butyl tape/sealant installation,

If you have a shingle or tile roof and they are not double-flashing, you can
kiss any existing roof warranty bye-bye.

I've not seen a good install over spanish (half round) tile. The best was to strip the roof under the array area, install asphalt shingles, and the array over that. Array both hides and protects the asphalt shingles, and you avoid a tile breaking 6 months from now as stress builds.

[russ]

"I've not seen a good install over spanish (half round) tile. The best was to strip the roof under the array area, install asphalt shingles, and the array over that. Array both hides and protects the asphalt shingles, and you avoid a tile breaking 6 months from now as stress builds."

How they do that I do not understand - unless the shingles run all the way down the slope

The contractor is responsible for any damage they do are they not? The 4" refers to future leaks and certainly is minimal.

[SoCalsolar]

can't say for sure but

Can't say for sure but sounds a like the contractor should have included all this in the original quotation. It's an easy observation that should have been noticed and included in the lease price. It likely would have cost you less than doing each separate. That being said you are getting a really good price on your system that you can't get now. As far as specifics on your install and age of your roof it is conceivable that your paper would need to be replaced. The only thing for sure I can say is that this should have been addressed prior to you signing your lease docs.

[KRenn]

I have an actual install scheduled by the largest local Sunpower dealer next week and suddenly am facing 1/3 cost increase due to the roofing issues.
The house is built in 1997. I have bought it this year and have not discovered any roof problems (yet?). The company did an install on a nearby house last year, same model and type of brittle "Mexican" clay S tile.
The owner, who referred me to the installer, told me that the install was problematic and the company had some additional expense which they absorbed.
His tiles were only removed in the area of the panels and around, asphalt shingles applied, standoffs put on (I suppose with flashing), modules installed and tiles reinstalled, I would say completely.

When the company sent the field crew to inspect my roof 4 months ago, they roamed on the roof and broke immediately many tiles. They made not about this and told me the tiles will be replaced with the actual install. They sent a roofer they outsource the roofing to for a flat fee on each install to made a pre-install inspection. On a side, he complained how the company tries to make money off him. I presume due to higher complexity of this job, he wants more rewards and was up-selling (??) me his services with justification, that if he shall give his 2 year warranty it has to be done in his way:

On the sides of the roof, where any panels will be installed (so not only below and around the panels), completely remove the tiles up to the hip, overlap a 15# paper over the hip and cover with it the whole exposed roof, apply shingle roll at the width of the panel array TOP DOWN, i.e. from the hip down to the bottom edge, install panels, and then he will reapply the tiles to the edge of the panels (only).

I searched the board for related discussion and attached excerpts at the end of my posting. It seems to me that he is over-engineering the solution with covering the whole roof with a new paper and applying the asphalt shingles top-down, not only below and close around the panels.
To some extent as a layman I understand that this would be the most bomb proof solution, but I would had to pat him $5k for this "extra" work.
The company is quiet, not a peep, kind of like that we have to sort it out with the roofer.

The language in the contract related to my issue:
- they guarantee the roof to 4" around the roof penetrations for 2 years,
- they can drop the contract with me for what ever reason
- they may ask for conditions to be rectified before the install.

They sure also realize that I am one of the last who got the excellent prepaid lease before the prices went up. They may just push me to swallow the cost. I can get in posturing that such price increase negates the deal for me and pretend to walk away, but they possibly know that I would not.
I can try to make some side cash deal with the roofer to bring the cost down. Least expensive ($0)? would be to insist that the work is performed in a similar way as on my neighbor roof and how it was described in the work order I glanced over the roofer's shoulder.

My main question is whether the offered re-roofing is not necessary and how to deal with the installer if I would like to go the re-roofing way. I have no insight how much the flat fee is for the roofer...
Also if you have any suggestion re the language in the roofing proposal.



My current proposal language
Pitched Roof:
1-Remove existing clay tile, to clean deck.
2-Remove existing hip & ridge mud.
3-Remove existing hip & ridge post.
4-Clean up all debri before dry-in.
5-Install new 15# underlayment (over existing paper)
6-Install new shingle 3-tab (Terracotta or Copper Color)
7-Re-Install clay tile back in place (arround array area)
8-Re-Install hip & ridge mud back in place.
9-Re-Install hip & ridge post back in place.
10-Replace High Dormer Vent Attic Ventilation for a low profile vent if needed. This will be at an extra charge.
11-Clean up trash and haul away all debris



Board excerpt below:


In http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...blem-for-Solar
When installing solar panels on a tile roof they will be removed, and the standoffs are attached directly to the underlying rafters. Then the standoffs are flashed just like any other vent so they will be waterproofed.
If your roof tiles are really fragile (i.e. antique spanish mission tiles, etc.) the contractor (or you if you are doing it yourself) should probably consider having a roofer come out and remove the tiles under the area where the array is going. Commonly, the roofer will then lay comp shingles under the array and then replace the tiles around the array once it is installed for a clean appearance.
Generally..
Remove the tile, seal a mounting device to roof, put a threaded rod through a hole in the tile and into the mounting device and the rails.
or
Cut a big hole and put a standoff through it, sealed and with a flashing.
or
Remove the tiles in the area, install shingle roof in that section, reinstall tiles around the border and it blends in.

---------------------------------

The roof is a definite consideration when doing solar and it largely depends of the age and type of the roof. If it's a tile roof there is usually no need to replace the entire roof but if the existing roof is ten years old then the paper under the tile may need to be replaced but the original tile roof re-installed. Unless the roof is clay tile and not cement than most of the time you replace the area where the array goes with a composition roof. And as King said if you have a comp roof that has less than 20 years on the waranty it take it down to the sheathing (if there is any) and replace that sucker


If you have a Spanish tile roof there is extra consideration about leaking. Here there is a trend toward replacing the area to be covered by solar panels with a composite roof, and then placing back the tiles around the pv panels for aesthetic purposes. The claim is that this is less prone to leaks...

Tile roof applications if roof is already tiled, is better to remove all tiles then apply bitumen composite, then feet anchors, use butyl tape for thear anchoring, then apply tar over anchor heads for additional water proofing.

I would recommend a flashing as opposed to the butyl tape/sealant installation,

If you have a shingle or tile roof and they are not double-flashing, you can
kiss any existing roof warranty bye-bye.

I've not seen a good install over spanish (half round) tile. The best was to strip the roof under the array area, install asphalt shingles, and the array over that. Array both hides and protects the asphalt shingles, and you avoid a tile breaking 6 months from now as stress builds.

What incompetent moron of a dealer did you choose that didn't bother to verify the type of tile that you have? That should be covered before the contract is even signed to begin with as working on clay or Spanish tile requires immeasurably more precautions. Typical price increase for that is roughly about $0.50 a watt. A competent installer will note that right off the bat precisely so the customer isn't stuck with a big add-on a few months down the road.


Since you already have a signed contract, I really don't see how they can charge you anymore money, the contract is done, if their representative blew it, sorry, tell them to eat the cost and step their game up in the future.

[KRenn]

Can't say for sure but sounds a like the contractor should have included all this in the original quotation. It's an easy observation that should have been noticed and included in the lease price. It likely would have cost you less than doing each separate. That being said you are getting a really good price on your system that you can't get now. As far as specifics on your install and age of your roof it is conceivable that your paper would need to be replaced. The only thing for sure I can say is that this should have been addressed prior to you signing your lease docs.

Its SUPPOSED to be included in the original price. No wonder half these solar installers are going out of business when they're running a Keystone Kops operation like this. If you have a company representative, even a salesperson come out to your home, that is one of the most basic things they are supposed to notate, the exact type of roof material, ESPECIALLY when it comes to clay or Spanish tile.

[AZstars]

Its SUPPOSED to be included in the original price. No wonder half these solar installers are going out of business when they're running a Keystone Kops operation like this. If you have a company representative, even a salesperson come out to your home, that is one of the most basic things they are supposed to notate, the exact type of roof material, ESPECIALLY when it comes to clay or Spanish tile.

Well they noticed very well, crushing the tiles as they did the initial measurement. Maybe they did not care, planning that I will pay the bill anyway. And they specifically noted in their notes the fragile tiles..

[KRenn]

Well they noticed very well, crushing the tiles as they did the initial measurement. Maybe they did not care, planning that I will pay the bill anyway. And they specifically noted in their notes the fragile tiles..

Was this before or after you signed your contract? It should be something that's noted before there's any sort of contract agreement reached, unless you got one of those halfwit salespeople who was selling time shares three months prior and heard there's all sorts of cool government money in solar...........................

[AZstars]

What incompetent moron of a dealer did you choose that didn't bother to verify the type of tile that you have?

A PLATINUM SunPower dealer !

That should be covered before the contract is even signed to begin with as working on clay or Spanish tile requires immeasurably more precautions. Typical price increase for that is roughly about $0.50 a watt. A competent installer will note that right off the bat precisely so the customer isn't stuck with a big add-on a few months down the road.

Maybe that was the goal, get me signed with numerically better appearing quote.

Since you already have a signed contract, I really don't see how they can charge you anymore money, the contract is done, if their representative blew it, sorry, tell them to eat the cost and step their game up in the future.

I may try this but they will weasel out..

Interestingly, on the Angie's list, beside A reports, they have a recent scathing evaluation for similar problem. I am wondering whether they now try to save on the roofing:
"But really the problem was around the work they wanted me to do before they installed the array. The salesman pushed me hard to install a new roof before the panels went up, even though I told him I had an inspector tell me the roof had at least 7 years of life left. "

[AZstars]

Was this before or after you signed your contract? It should be something that's noted before there's any sort of contract agreement reached, ..........................

Before the contract was signed.

[KRenn]

A PLATINUM SunPower dealer !

That's essentially meaningless, the whole SunPower rating system is a marketing scheme. Realistically as a business you have to be with SunPower for at least 12 months and have to meet a certain sales quota and you get Elite status. If it meant something, a company like PerfectPower, "Elite" status for years and the toast of the town, wouldn't have completely and totally collapsed.

Maybe that was the goal, get me signed with numerically better appearing quote.

Wouldn't be the first time a solar dealer tries to screw a customer later on in the process. This is why the top companies don't do change orders, if they make a mistake early on in the process, they eat the cost, move on and learn to train their employees accordingly or replace them.

I may try this but they will weasel out..

Read your SunPower contract thoroughly. I don't think there's any exception for additional charges, since the contract has long since been signed, its really up to you or the dealer to eat the cost, SunPower won't touch it, no reason why you should eat the cost since they screwed up, either deliberately or due to incompetence. As a matter of fact I might recommend going to SunPower directly and stating why you don't think this is fair....its certainly worth a shot.

Interestingly, on the Angie's list, beside A reports, they have a recent scathing evaluation for similar problem. I am wondering whether they now try to save on the roofing:
"But really the problem was around the work they wanted me to do before they installed the array. The salesman pushed me hard to install a new roof before the panels went up, even though I told him I had an inspector tell me the roof had at least 7 years of life left. "

Like I said, the whole "Elite" status is meaningless, in Central/Northern Arizona there's literally a small handful of companies that I feel are doing exemplary work and offering a good value to their customers. The rest are either on their way out of business, just barely hanging on, or ripping customers off left and right.

[KRenn]

Before the contract was signed.

Okay so they knew there was an issue prior to the contract being signed. So why are they complaining now???? I'm sorry, they blew it, if they had their people, either direct employees or direct subcontractor inspect a roof and notate that it was clay tile, and they did NOT adjust the pricing in spite of that knowledge, I'd say tough cookies guys.

[russ]

Try getting your lawyer involved if it can be done cost effectively.

[SoCalsolar]

There is a 6 month clause and correction clause

There is a 6 month clause and correction clause on page 5, paragraph two in your lease that allows SP or the dealer to walk away from the lease. Also in the same paragraph it talks about the "conditions of the premises" being suitable. I imagine they will point to this when confronted. Your leverage in this situation would be reviews like Angie's List, the BBB, and some sort of compromise on cost. I've seen a few SP leases and I have never seen one that didn't include such a vital part of the job. That being said it sounds like they are taking the right approach as far as removing the clay tile and putting down comp. You should be able to get a few phone quotes some of the non-SP panels may be competitively priced. A ballpark cost for this work in CA would be around $100 per panel not sure if that's around what you are getting quoted. I don't imagine SP will come to your rescue either. Your rebate ought to have already been reserved in your name and should transfer to another dealer which should dramatically affect the price you can get today. This "platinum dealer" sounds more like pyrite to me. Confirm that you can maintain your rebate at its current level and look around making sure the new dealers you contact know the amount of rebate you have reserved. It works this way in CA not positive in AZ.

[KRenn]

There is a 6 month clause and correction clause on page 5, paragraph two in your lease that allows SP or the dealer to walk away from the lease. Also in the same paragraph it talks about the "conditions of the premises" being suitable. I imagine they will point to this when confronted. Your leverage in this situation would be reviews like Angie's List, the BBB, and some sort of compromise on cost. I've seen a few SP leases and I have never seen one that didn't include such a vital part of the job. That being said it sounds like they are taking the right approach as far as removing the clay tile and putting down comp. You should be able to get a few phone quotes some of the non-SP panels may be competitively priced. A ballpark cost for this work in CA would be around $100 per panel not sure if that's around what you are getting quoted. I don't imagine SP will come to your rescue either. Your rebate ought to have already been reserved in your name and should transfer to another dealer which should dramatically affect the price you can get today. This "platinum dealer" sounds more like pyrite to me. Confirm that you can maintain your rebate at its current level and look around making sure the new dealers you contact know the amount of rebate you have reserved. It works this way in CA not positive in AZ.

I don't think he gets anything close to better value by looking at other dealers now that the prices have gone way up, but as you mentioned, he does have some leverage in regards to utilizing sources such as Angie's List, BBB, Ripoff Report, all show up high on Google's search engine and a single bad review can be enough to completely disqualify a company in the eyes of potential customers. If there is an out clause for the dealer then I still think it'd be worthwhile for the OP to negotiate something with them, pointing to the fact that they did a pre-contract inspection and should have noted the potential issues involved with the clay roofing. I hate when businesses try to renege on a price because of an error they made, it screws the customer over because they might have gotten a far better deal with someone else who actually DID include the additional roofing expenses in their total. In this case it'd be worthwhile to negotiate with the company and ask them to eat at least some of the cost.