Time of Use Bill Credits with SCE

[BSR]

I'm trying to determine the size of solar panel system I will need, and to that effect, am trying to determine how SCE's Rate Schedule TOU-D-T will credit my kwh generation during peak times. Under a TOU schedule, my goal would be to create a setup that yields no bill for power usage over a 12 month time frame. Note that this will not necessarily mean that I want to generate as many kwhs as I use. I just need a bill credit from generation to offset usage charges. After reviewing SCE's current TOU schedule, however, I'm a bit puzzled. It is divided into peak and non-peak usage, but within each category, there are different rates for usage up to 130% of baseline and any usage over that amount. Specifically, the total price per kwh appears to be:

	Peak	non-peak
below 130%	.1934	.1256
above 130%	.5234	.2390

I presume that this allows SCE to credit power generated at the .1934 rate for <130% baseline peak power. If so, this seems like a problem, because most of my usage would be in non-peak during which time I would be using significantly more power than I am generating. Thus, most of my usage would likely be charged at the .2390 off-peak rate. Thus, it would seem that the peak power I generate at .1934 per kwh does not even fully offset a non-peak kwh once I've exceeded 130% of baseline. If so, then TOU is much less attractive, and may even be inferior to the standard Schedule D tiered system.

Can anyone using SCE's Rate Schedule TOU-D-T tell me the amount SCE credits you for generating 1 kwh during peak time? Additionally, do you find that on average you are credited more per kwh you generate than you are charged per kwh you use? Thanks in advance.

[Sunking]

If so, this seems like a problem, because most of my usage would be in non-peak during which time I would be using significantly more power than I am generating.

That is the whole point of TOU rates is to give the electric company a 100 to 400% rate increase. That is one of the reasons for Smart Meters. Fortunately here in TX we do not have to put up with that [...] we use all we want, anytime we want, for about $0.09Kwh flat rate.

Another scheme used like in Wisconsin (MGE) and some other states is they have what is called the Green Renewable Energy rate. So you have two rates to choose from.

1. The standard residential rate of $0.1478/Kwh.

2. Or the 100% Green Energy Rate of $0.3133/Kwh. Sad thing is a lot of SUCKERS sign up for it. People have no idea there is no such thing as Renewable Energy, they just volunteer to pay 211% more to make them feel good. The power all comes from the same generation plants their neighbors use.

They (MGE Wisconsin) also have a PT Barnum Sucker Born Every Minute TOU rate of $0.23274/Kwh peak, and $0.041/Kwh off peak from 9:00 pm to 10:00 am.

[Stomp]

BSR,

I just switched to TOU-DT using SCE. My smart meter was installed about a month ago but my hourly usage tracking just went live a few days ago. As such what I'm stating here is what I understand it to be, but I have no real-world TOU billing experience so far.

Quick background - I had the system installed in March 2011 and it generated about 10,300 kWh for the year. This offset almost all of my usage for the year and I was at a surplus for most of spring/summer. I got a rude awakening when I realized that the credits I got on a monthly basis were the tier 1 rate (or something similarly miniscule) multiplied by my surplus for that specific month - usually something like $10.00. In the winter months when I didn't generate much I got into Tier 4 territory and paid that fare and had back to back bills in excess of $200 each (lower than my bills pre solar, but still more than I wanted to pay). I know life isn't fair, but it seemed like BS that I'm getting paid $0.05 when they really need my electricity in the height of summer and then charge me $.25 when I use it at night in the winter to heat and light up my house.

Because I couldn't roll my summer generation into credits for the winter I decided to explore TOU since I perceive that will effectively do that, and here is why. I believe that TOU Level 1 / Level 2 apply both for the generation and the usage. I don't recall what level 1 is, but I think it's something like 260kwh. Assuming that is right, if you generated under 260kwh during peak hours in the summer you would get paid $.1934 for each kwh. However if you generated anything above 260kwh you would get paid the $.5234. Because of this the credits can theoretically be larger in the summer, and those can be used to offset the higher winter bills.

Yesterday (the 14th) I generated 25.6kwh during the peak hours and used 19 off peak. I created a quick spreadsheet that shows how I think it could play out if each and every day were the same. Recognizing I don't think "Summer" has started yet, I used the summer pricing. You need to remember that Sat/Sun are off peak, so that daytime generation that is usually during peak hours is actually off peak. My 4.33 multiplier was trying to take the weekly and convert to monthly. I also took a quick guess at Winter usage with those rates rounded to the nearest cent (I only jotted them down once). Clearly in the height of summer we'll probably use the AC more, and in the dead of winter perhaps more heat, but here is my guess at how the bill could work. It's late now and I need to get to bed, so it's possible this version has a major error I didn't see yet. If anything jumps out at you (or anybody else viewing it) let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As5_Lei9YFCCdGIwNGVIRXNmT2w1R09mWWNBWlZDRmc

Derek

[Mike90250]

I can't see the spreadsheet via my workplace firewalls.


The big flaw (for homeowners) in SCE ToU plan, is the late evening time it extends to, 9pm in some areas is still considered peak, but well past the hour solar PV gave out. So you get to buy power from 4pm and later

[Stomp]

Hi Mike,

I looked in the various TOU rates and don't see 9pm anywhere on their website or rate sheets. I'm going on the expectation that it's 10am -> 6pm M-F for peak (excluding holidays), with everything else off-peak.

http://www.sce.com/aboutsce/regulatory/tariffbooks/ratespricing/residentialrates.htm

Perhaps their website is smart enough to only show my region when I log in, or perhaps the 9pm is dated?

Regarding my post last night, when I get some time I'm going to look at my old bills and see what my usage was and compare with my Sunpower generation logs. I'd like to create a tab for each month and go with rough assumptions on generation and usage, and time of usage. Should be interesting to see how it turns out.

Derek

[Stomp]

Just got my first TOU Bill

Here is the first bill on Time of Use - a credit of ($39.09). Since my wife and I are rarely home during peak hours (M-F, 10 am to 6pm) I've been at a substantial surplus during those hours. As you can see they give the Level 1/Level 2 credit the same way they would charge you, so once you exceed baseline you get Level 2 credit. So far I'm pleased with the arrangement and looking forward to seeing how it works out w/ the summer pricing/generation. Still need to take the time to do an estimated monthly spreadsheet.

Delivery charges
Energy-Winter On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -212 kWh x $0.05369 -$11.38
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) -261 kWh x $0.17254 -$45.03
Energy-Winter Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 135 kWh x $0.06876 $9.28
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) 166 kWh x $0.16719 $27.75
DWR bond charge -172 kWh x $0.00513 -$0.88

Generation charges
DWR
DWR energy credit -172 kWh x -$0.00593 $1.02
SCE
Energy-Winter On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -212 kWh x $0.07547 -$16.00
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) -261 kWh x $0.07547 -$19.70
Energy-Winter Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 135 kWh x $0.05263 $7.11
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) 166 kWh x $0.05263 $8.74
Energy Charge Total -$39.09

[inetdog]

Here is the first bill on Time of Use - a credit of ($39.09). Since my wife and I are rarely home during peak hours (M-F, 10 am to 6pm) I've been at a substantial surplus during those hours. As you can see they give the Level 1/Level 2 credit the same way they would charge you, so once you exceed baseline you get Level 2 credit. So far I'm pleased with the arrangement and looking forward to seeing how it works out w/ the summer pricing/generation. Still need to take the time to do an estimated monthly spreadsheet.

Delivery charges
Energy-Winter On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -212 kWh x $0.05369 -$11.38
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) -261 kWh x $0.17254 -$45.03
Energy-Winter Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 135 kWh x $0.06876 $9.28
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) 166 kWh x $0.16719 $27.75
DWR bond charge -172 kWh x $0.00513 -$0.88

Generation charges
DWR
DWR energy credit -172 kWh x -$0.00593 $1.02
SCE
Energy-Winter On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -212 kWh x $0.07547 -$16.00
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) -261 kWh x $0.07547 -$19.70
Energy-Winter Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 135 kWh x $0.05263 $7.11
Lvl 2 (more than 130%) 166 kWh x $0.05263 $8.74
Energy Charge Total -$39.09

It is interesting the way they separate the Delivery charges from the Generation charges. But it sure looks like they are paying you the premium price for what you generate, both based on usage volume and on time period.

You are very fortunate compared to some other states TOU and to flate-rate Net Metering.

[Stomp]

As I alluded to in an earlier post, it really irritated me on the base Net Metering plan that I was getting reimbursed the Tier 1 rate (on a scale of 1-5) for any excess I generated regardless of amount, but ended up in the Tier 4 penalty box in the winter months, resulting in what felt like a substantial penalty. It seems to me that TOU should work well for us given our living pattern (house is mostly empty during peak hours), but this might be very different for a family that doesn't have this dynamic (i.e. stay-at-home spouse using A/C or appliances OR retired individuals mostly home). I could definitely see how this wouldn't pencil out for many, but for us I think it will make sense (I'll reserve my final judgment for about this time next year!)

[KRenn]

That is the whole point of TOU rates is to give the electric company a 100 to 400% rate increase. That is one of the reasons for Smart Meters. Fortunately here in TX we do not have to put up with that [...] we use all we want, anytime we want, for about $0.09Kwh flat rate.

Another scheme used like in Wisconsin (MGE) and some other states is they have what is called the Green Renewable Energy rate. So you have two rates to choose from.

1. The standard residential rate of $0.1478/Kwh.

2. Or the 100% Green Energy Rate of $0.3133/Kwh. Sad thing is a lot of SUCKERS sign up for it. People have no idea there is no such thing as Renewable Energy, they just volunteer to pay 211% more to make them feel good. The power all comes from the same generation plants their neighbors use.

They (MGE Wisconsin) also have a PT Barnum Sucker Born Every Minute TOU rate of $0.23274/Kwh peak, and $0.041/Kwh off peak from 9:00 pm to 10:00 am.

The dumbest thing in the world to me, basically agreeing to give yourself a rate hike and trusting that the utility company will be utilizing "green" energy instead of burning coal like business as usual, not return on investment even, might as well setup a bonfire in the backyard and throw money into it on the regular.

[solarsammy]

TOU-DT is tricky to sketchy

I work for a smallish solar operation in SoCal and we used to (last year) switch all our customers to TOU to take advantage the favorable exchange rate. Your account gets credited for peak prices while your PV is producing during the day and when you are pulling from the grid at night you pay lower off-peak price. This allowed us to build a system that covered 100% of their SCE bill but produced %80 of annual kW usage. As of 2012 SCE rolled out a new TOU-DT. The changes now mean your system has to produce about 90% of your annual kW usage. SCE shortened the summer months reducing the time when customers could get credited at the higher on-peak summer rates. They also now give each customer an individual baseline that changes month to month based on your previous usage. We now often recommend that our customers stay on the D rate unless they are out of the house most of the day including the summer months (teachers). Fortunately the prices on the PV modules have dropped so much over the last year the 90% system it takes now costs less then the 80% system of last year.

Mod note - next time you fish for customers you are banned - if you want to advertise then you can pay

[Stomp]

Just got my second TOU bill - happy so far!

June 1 was the switch from winter to summer, hence the different rates. Haven't spent a lot of time understanding it and any prorations they did for each period, but looking forward to seeing a full summer bill. One thing I realize is that it hasn't been hot enough for us to use the AC yet, and even at night I'm sure that thing will draw a lot. Until I have a full year under my belt I'll reserve judgment, but so far so good.

[Stomp]

Summer On Peak level 1...why is the multiplier a negative (on the cost) under delivery charges. SCE will be getting a call from me on Monday...

[KRenn]

That's one of the most confusing electric bills I've ever seen, I hate the multi-tiered cost system they've got in California.

[Stomp]

Summer On Peak level 1...why is the multiplier a negative (on the cost) under delivery charges. SCE will be getting a call from me on Monday...

Looks like they were right and I was wrong. Level 1 On Peak Summer is supposed to be about $.19 / kwh. For whatever reason their system needed to net out the Generation and Delivery changes to get to the $.19 as opposed to splitting the cost between the two. Just posting this in case some future SCE TOU customer is faced with the same question.

[Stomp]

Another update. Just got my August bill. Had a credit of $278 going into the cycle, and even with running an old AC unit a fair amount at night (and weekends), TOU is really working out well for us. This bill was ($118), so I now have a credit just under $400 as the summer season nears an end.

Summer Season - Consumption

On peak 6 Off peak 653

Summer Season – Net Generation

On peak -535 Off peak -175

Total -51

That -51 under basic net metering would have netted me about $6.12 (assuming they would have paid me tier one of about $.12), as opposed to the $118 I got from TOU. We'll see how things work out in the winter...hopefully my credit ends up being big enough to offset use in lower-generating months.