Grape Solar 250W panels, M-215 micros.....

[caffeinekid]

In a nutshell, I am attempting to compile a residential grid tie PV system in a rather piecemeal fashion. I would like to get everything together and then get it installed. I am basing it around the purchase of Grape Solar 250W panels since I have an incentive plan at work that rewards in gift cards from various sources including Home Depot, with Home Depot being the only decent option for me. I acquire about $1000/month worth of Home Depot cards. What this means is that I can buy about 5 panels every two months. I have accumulated enough for 5 panels so far, but I am holding off until I have all of the credit in order to ensure a uniform panel array. The last thing I want is to order 5 and then two months later, they no longer carry that model.

The system size I have planned out is 5KW, but I may go to 6KW. I have found sources for getting the Enphase M-215s at ~ $160 each (case of 24). I am using the microinverters because of possible partial shading issues due to the layout of my available roof segments and I want to ensure maximum system output.

This is where I have stopped. I haven't decided on a mounting system or anything beyond the basic array itself. I also need to figure out how to get it installed. Knowing the costs of the system components thus far (and in general), I am not impressed with the level of markup by the local installation company that I have gotten a separate quote from on one of their systems. My impression is that the industry standard is about 15% of total cost, but when I broke down the quote, it was a lot more than that. Any pointers or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Naptown]

In a nutshell, I am attempting to compile a residential grid tie PV system in a rather piecemeal fashion. I would like to get everything together and then get it installed. I am basing it around the purchase of Grape Solar 250W panels since I have an incentive plan at work that rewards in gift cards from various sources including Home Depot, with Home Depot being the only decent option for me. I acquire about $1000/month worth of Home Depot cards. What this means is that I can buy about 5 panels every two months. I have accumulated enough for 5 panels so far, but I am holding off until I have all of the credit in order to ensure a uniform panel array. The last thing I want is to order 5 and then two months later, they no longer carry that model.

The system size I have planned out is 5KW, but I may go to 6KW. I have found sources for getting the Enphase M-215s at ~ $160 each (case of 24). I am using the microinverters because of possible partial shading issues due to the layout of my available roof segments and I want to ensure maximum system output.

This is where I have stopped. I haven't decided on a mounting system or anything beyond the basic array itself. I also need to figure out how to get it installed. Knowing the costs of the system components thus far (and in general), I am not impressed with the level of markup by the local installation company that I have gotten a separate quote from on one of their systems. My impression is that the industry standard is about 15% of total cost, but when I broke down the quote, it was a lot more than that. Any pointers or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Define what you mean by markup.
Don't confuse markup with profit they are two entirely different things.
What are you using for your basis for markup and the excessive amount you think they are charging.
I have been around the construction and energy business for over 35 years. I know how much markup it takes to stay in business. And I can tell you it is more than 15%.

[caffeinekid]

Define what you mean by markup.
Don't confuse markup with profit they are two entirely different things.
What are you using for your basis for markup and the excessive amount you think they are charging.
I have been around the construction and energy business for over 35 years. I know how much markup it takes to stay in business. And I can tell you it is more than 15%.

Thanks. Sorry. I was actually referring to the labor itself because that is essentially all I need, and cost over parts for the project was in the realm of 50+ %. Also consider that there is already markup factored in on the items that I buy since I am not getting them at wholesale. So if I can get the entire system myself and it costs me a little under 50% of what the company is quoting for the project, and the difference is in the realm of $15-20K, then I am thinking that there is a lot of money going to "other" factors. I don't mean to negate the craft and I know that there is more to business -insurance, licensing, fuel, downtime, training, subcontractor markup, etc.- but $15-20K spread out over a few days' work is a pretty handsome sum in my book. Keep in mind that a lot of us out here are still sore in the backside from the raping that went on in home construction over the last decade and we're not anxious to repeat it. Every dollar that goes outside of the array itself is another dollar that goes against ROI.

[Naptown]

I can see where a contractor would increase their labor costs to install an owner supplied system.

1) you have taken away a large portion of the profit potential by supplying the materials. This means that for the same labor and time expenditure they will make much less than if they had supplied the materials as they have lost their markup on those items.

2) There are many small and intricate parts that go into these. The liklihood of you getting everything on the job, correct in the proper quantities is small. This would mean delays return trips etc which would drive up the cost of the labor.
As a contractor having an owner supply materials on anything but the simplest project is a nightmare. If you get it right it will fall into the 1% category of those who do get it right.

There is one savings for a contractor. He will not be responsible for any warranty issues due to equipment failures on owner supplied materials.

[russ]

Come on Rich - 15 to 20,000$ to install the 5 kW system?

[Naptown]

Come on Rich - 15 to 20,000$ to install the 5 kW system?

Yes that is excessive. And given the costs I think that is for more of a complete system including materials or should be at 20K
Labor only according to the big leasing companies pays about 1.50-2.00 per watt.
This includes fasteners, misc install supplies, electrical work, permits etc.
They would supply modules, racking, inverters, DC cabling, combiners.

[russ]

That sounds reasonable - everyone has to make a living!

[caffeinekid]

I can see where a contractor would increase their labor costs to install an owner supplied system.

1) you have taken away a large portion of the profit potential by supplying the materials. This means that for the same labor and time expenditure they will make much less than if they had supplied the materials as they have lost their markup on those items.

2) There are many small and intricate parts that go into these. The liklihood of you getting everything on the job, correct in the proper quantities is small. This would mean delays return trips etc which would drive up the cost of the labor.
As a contractor having an owner supply materials on anything but the simplest project is a nightmare. If you get it right it will fall into the 1% category of those who do get it right.

There is one savings for a contractor. He will not be responsible for any warranty issues due to equipment failures on owner supplied materials.

Don't get me wrong, I am not really here to bash contractors or argue the merits of hiring one that has offered a compelling enough reason to impart with thousands upon thousands over cost of equipment. As an electronics engineer, there is nothing about installing a solar array that I fear or would not be able to do myself given the time and manpower required. Nevertheless, the main reason I want to supply my own parts is because I have nothing else to do with these gift cards. Using them to acquire the panel array is literally the only use that I have for them. I have already bought all of the LED bulbs, water filtration and appliances that I need. Panels are the only thing that Home Depot sells that I can still make use of. Otherwise- like many other Americans- I would still be waiting until panel pricing came down significantly enough to make up for the high cost of having a PV service install one.

[billvon]

there is nothing about installing a solar array that I fear or would not be able to do myself given the time and manpower required.

Then do it yourself. It's not rocket science; any competent electrical engineer can learn what he needs from the NEC and a lot of self education. You can even qualify for the rebates as long as it's inspected properly - we had someone down here who did the entire install himself, passed both county and utility inspections and got the CEC rebate. Took him about 18 months start to finish though, mainly due to paperwork.