Do you need special meters if you only get like 1 solar panel?

[miogpsrocks]

Do you need special meters if you only get like 1 solar panel with a micro grid tie inverter?

Let's say you are in a situation where the small 100 watt solar panel will never outweigh the power demands of your house. HVAC, freezer, fridge, pool pumps, lights, etc....

Do you still need a 2-way power meter?

[J.P.M.]

You will probably not need special metering equipment, but you will most definitely need a net metering agreement like everyone else with a residential PV system, regardless of size.

Call your power provider to make sure.

[azdave]

Do you still need a 2-way power meter?

If there ever comes a time when your panel produces more energy than you are instantaneously consuming, then the meter would attempt to run "backwards" so to speak. Many meters that are not programmed for RE use, will bill you for energy flowing upstream the same as downstream so you could actually be charged extra if any energy happens to go out to the grid.

[chrisski]

This would never be permitted by the town where I live.

You can get systems that plug into a wall outlet and will push power back onto your house or grid. I don’t like these.

a single 100 watt panel will not make much power at all.

I don’t recommend half @ssing the build and either get a grid tied, move some items to a smaller off grid system, or don’t do the build at all.

[J.P.M.]

One of the big reasons why a NEM agreement is reeded between the producer (you) and the power Company is so that they will know you are a producer.
Why do they need to know that?
So when there's a power outage or other need for service and the company sends service personnel out and up a power pole they don't get zapped by your power they never knew about and could not interrupt it.

It's a safety issue as well as a control issue for the POCO and subject to penalties in many/most areas of civilization.

Like it or not, all you gotta' do is follow the rules. This ain't the wild west any more.
If your small system is COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM THE UTILITY SUPPLIED POWER COMING INTO YOUR PROPERTY YOU DON'T NEED A NEM. OTHERWISE, IN MOST AREAS YOU DO.
As I wrote prior, call your POCO and ask them.

[miogpsrocks]

One of the big reasons why a NEM agreement is reeded between the producer (you) and the power Company is so that they will know you are a producer.
Why do they need to know that?
So when there's a power outage or other need for service and the company sends service personnel out and up a power pole they don't get zapped by your power they never knew about and could not interrupt it.

It's a safety issue as well as a control issue for the POCO and subject to penalties in many/most areas of civilization.

Like it or not, all you gotta' do is follow the rules. This ain't the wild west any more.
If your small system is COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM THE UTILITY SUPPLIED POWER COMING INTO YOUR PROPERTY YOU DON'T NEED A NEM. OTHERWISE, IN MOST AREAS YOU DO.
As I wrote prior, call your POCO and ask them.

I could try to call them put the people who answer the phone are pretty stupid. I once had an argument with them because they told me that my power was not out when it was. They said they could not determine that because they could not communicate with the smart meter for some reason starting at the time my power went out.

[miogpsrocks]

One of the big reasons why a NEM agreement is reeded between the producer (you) and the power Company is so that they will know you are a producer.
Why do they need to know that?
So when there's a power outage or other need for service and the company sends service personnel out and up a power pole they don't get zapped by your power they never knew about and could not interrupt it.

It's a safety issue as well as a control issue for the POCO and subject to penalties in many/most areas of civilization.

Like it or not, all you gotta' do is follow the rules. This ain't the wild west any more.
If your small system is COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM THE UTILITY SUPPLIED POWER COMING INTO YOUR PROPERTY YOU DON'T NEED A NEM. OTHERWISE, IN MOST AREAS YOU DO.
As I wrote prior, call your POCO and ask them.

Should not be an issue. Grid Tie inverters will kill the power when they detect the grid is down.

[miogpsrocks]

This would never be permitted by the town where I live.

You can get systems that plug into a wall outlet and will push power back onto your house or grid. I don’t like these.

a single 100 watt panel will not make much power at all.

I don’t recommend half @ssing the build and either get a grid tied, move some items to a smaller off grid system, or don’t do the build at all.

What do you consider half @ssing it?

How much of my power consumption should I try to offset with solar?

Thanks.

[chrisski]

I worded that he half @ss kind of strong. It’s more about how much you want to spend.

what is your average monthly power consumption, and how much of that is a good goal for you?

With POCOs going to consumer unfriendly NEM3 type agreements, payback period is long or non-existent, so my recently completed home build isolated me from power outages and protects me from rate increases. Won’t ever recover the investment.

If you’re lucky, you live in an area with more favorable rates and you could make money back.

My bill averages about $240 a month pre solar. A single 100 watt panel likely produces about $.05 per day of electricity, or $.45 cents per month. In the grand scheme of things a single panel is not worth the expense for that.

If I take that solar panel, for $500 I can build a solar generator I can cook for a family of 4 emergency food. I’ve found my fridge takes 4 kWh of power per day, so 900 watts of panels and a 6 kWh battery pack will cover that. Perhaps with cells from China the total build cost is $3k.

My guide to compare a good install where it’s designed, permitted, plans stamped if appropriate, installed, inspected, brought into service, and have a someone answer questions post commissioning is $15k for 5 kW of panels, $10k -$15k for 10 kWh of batteries.

[miogpsrocks]

I worded that he half @ss kind of strong. It’s more about how much you want to spend.

what is your average monthly power consumption, and how much of that is a good goal for you?

With POCOs going to consumer unfriendly NEM3 type agreements, payback period is long or non-existent, so my recently completed home build isolated me from power outages and protects me from rate increases. Won’t ever recover the investment.

If you’re lucky, you live in an area with more favorable rates and you could make money back.

My bill averages about $240 a month pre solar. A single 100 watt panel likely produces about $.05 per day of electricity, or $.45 cents per month. In the grand scheme of things a single panel is not worth the expense for that.

If I take that solar panel, for $500 I can build a solar generator I can cook for a family of 4 emergency food. I’ve found my fridge takes 4 kWh of power per day, so 900 watts of panels and a 6 kWh battery pack will cover that. Perhaps with cells from China the total build cost is $3k.

My guide to compare a good install where it’s designed, permitted, plans stamped if appropriate, installed, inspected, brought into service, and have a someone answer questions post commissioning is $15k for 5 kW of panels, $10k -$15k for 10 kWh of batteries.

I am trying to offset a sizable chunk of my power consumption for as cheap as possible.

So no batteries, just down to the basics.

Why do you need net metering agreement to make this make financial sense? Why can't you just build a setup take up 70-90% of your house consumption?
The electric bill savings goes towards the cost of the solar panels.

Did net metering agreement ever mean that you are being paid more for solar power than the power company charges you for electric?

Thanks.

[J.P.M.]

Should not be an issue. Grid Tie inverters will kill the power when they detect the grid is down.

Well one reason why NEM agreements exist is to help ensure that the inverter used is capable of doing just that that.
Not all are.
I know of a couple of vendors who would foist cheap foreign products that would not do that on ignorant homeowners.
I caught them as did the AHJ (the building inspector), but without the NEM requirements, such things might not have been caught.

All you gotta' do is follow the rules.

[chrisski]

Did net metering agreement ever mean that you are being paid more for solar power than the power company charges you for electric?

Thanks.

I really think your "Is NET metering is needed" question has been answered as best as it can be short of working with your AHJ and POCO.

As far as does the NEM agreement mean you get paid, the short answer is unlikely.

I have an updated unfavorable NEM 3 agreement and I will never be able to make money out of it. No matter how many panels I put on the roof or how many inverters and batteries I get in any combination large or small will I ever be able to have a break even point.

If you have a NEM 1 agreement, with a large enough array, its possible. There is not just a NEM1, NEM 2, NEM3 agreement, there are thousands of variations of those based off where you are in the country and which plan you choose. Locally, there are about 5 plans you can sign up for with the POCO, none particularly better than the other. Areas offering these favorable agreements are getting fewer and fewer, so if you have a favorable agreement, might as well get it now before it goes away.

[miogpsrocks]

I really think your "Is NET metering is needed" question has been answered as best as it can be short of working with your AHJ and POCO.

As far as does the NEM agreement mean you get paid, the short answer is unlikely.

I have an updated unfavorable NEM 3 agreement and I will never be able to make money out of it. No matter how many panels I put on the roof or how many inverters and batteries I get in any combination large or small will I ever be able to have a break even point.

If you have a NEM 1 agreement, with a large enough array, its possible. There is not just a NEM1, NEM 2, NEM3 agreement, there are thousands of variations of those based off where you are in the country and which plan you choose. Locally, there are about 5 plans you can sign up for with the POCO, none particularly better than the other. Areas offering these favorable agreements are getting fewer and fewer, so if you have a favorable agreement, might as well get it now before it goes away.

Is it true there are meter fees for Net metering agreements? It sounds like its not worth it to have this agreement if the power company has such unfavorable terms. I think the newer grid tie inverters have zero export options to so you are only producing power for your house. I think if I fill my available area with solar panels, I still won't even have half of what I normally use.

So in my situation, I have no need for batteries since I have a generator for power outages and I can never produce anywhere close to what I consume.

[chrisski]

Grid zero at times will export and a smart meter from a POCO can catch this. Some export a small amount that add up to kW per month, but more commonly when a large load like an 11kW EV charger shuts off, a small amount of power is fed back to the grid as the inverter adjusts.

Basically, because a POCO was offered a monopoly to sell your power, if this system touches yours in anyway, by law you will need an interconnect agreement. Not an option.

[miogpsrocks]

Grid zero at times will export and a smart meter from a POCO can catch this. Some export a small amount that add up to kW per month, but more commonly when a large load like an 11kW EV charger shuts off, a small amount of power is fed back to the grid as the inverter adjusts.

Basically, because a POCO was offered a monopoly to sell your power, if this system touches yours in anyway, by law you will need an interconnect agreement. Not an option.

If you have zero export enabled. The amount that gets backfeed into the system is just kind of an small accidental amount which turns into free energy for them. They might charge your neighbor for this power that you created and they might even charge you depending on the meter I am told. Sounds like a windfall situation for the power company.

I wish I had enough power production from solar to even come close to this but I'm not even able to make even 50% of what my house uses on a low day due to the fact of them being mounted almost flat on a flat roof area.