Help assessing quotes

[edustys]

Help me out here J.P.M.
Here’s our story: In 2008 we installed a 44 panel (25yr warranty) 2 inverter(10 yr warranty) SunPower system (Positive Ground which was state of the art then) for 66k cash after all was said and done (federal credits). System was operating fine. Our annual true-up averaged about 1.5k per year. My December, 2021 bill showed only 21kwh and January was 33kwh down from average normals of 240kwh -300kwh respectively for that time of the year. Obviously something had gone wrong. A SunPower authorized tech came out, opened the inverters and found that inverter servicing 22 south exposure panels had burned out (interior was scorched).

At some point since our initial purchase the industry went to Negative Ground Inverters. It also now appears that SunPower, knowing that inverters fail, did nothing to support its customers who now own basically ticking time-bombs because once failed there appears to be no replacements nor any work arounds. The remaining inverter (servicing 22 west exposure panels) is still working but for how long is anybody’s guess. To say that we’re profoundly disappointed in SunPower would be an understatement. Of course, we didn’t expect the inverters to last forever but we did expect to have been able to purchase replacements when they did ultimately fail.

We’ve been in contact with SunRun who are offering what I guess is a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) which would install enough panels, at zero cost to us, to generate an overall 9,921kwhs annually at a flat rate of $0.22 per monthly kwh’s used with an annual increase capped at 2.9%. The current rates in our area are $.282 tier 1, $.354 tier 2, and obviously much higher in tier 3 which we will most certainly hit in the hotter California summer months. Additionally, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) will most certainly continue to have more rate hikes as they pay out settlements and incur higher maintenance costs related to their taking responsibility for numerous very destructive wild fires.

For now and perhaps the next 5 to 10 years, the SunRun option looks very appealing but there are always buts aren’t there. If you were us, what questions would you be asking? What terms would you be negotiating? What pitfalls would you be looking out for? What equipment should we be expecting? Basically what do you feel might be our best course of action.

[J.P.M.]

Help me out here J.P.M.
Here’s our story: In 2008 we installed a 44 panel (25yr warranty) 2 inverter(10 yr warranty) SunPower system (Positive Ground which was state of the art then) for 66k cash after all was said and done (federal credits). System was operating fine. Our annual true-up averaged about 1.5k per year. My December, 2021 bill showed only 21kwh and January was 33kwh down from average normals of 240kwh -300kwh respectively for that time of the year. Obviously something had gone wrong. A SunPower authorized tech came out, opened the inverters and found that inverter servicing 22 south exposure panels had burned out (interior was scorched).

At some point since our initial purchase the industry went to Negative Ground Inverters. It also now appears that SunPower, knowing that inverters fail, did nothing to support its customers who now own basically ticking time-bombs because once failed there appears to be no replacements nor any work arounds. The remaining inverter (servicing 22 west exposure panels) is still working but for how long is anybody’s guess. To say that we’re profoundly disappointed in SunPower would be an understatement. Of course, we didn’t expect the inverters to last forever but we did expect to have been able to purchase replacements when they did ultimately fail.

We’ve been in contact with SunRun who are offering what I guess is a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) which would install enough panels, at zero cost to us, to generate an overall 9,921kwhs annually at a flat rate of $0.22 per monthly kwh’s used with an annual increase capped at 2.9%. The current rates in our area are $.282 tier 1, $.354 tier 2, and obviously much higher in tier 3 which we will most certainly hit in the hotter California summer months. Additionally, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) will most certainly continue to have more rate hikes as they pay out settlements and incur higher maintenance costs related to their taking responsibility for numerous very destructive wild fires.

For now and perhaps the next 5 to 10 years, the SunRun option looks very appealing but there are always buts aren’t there. If you were us, what questions would you be asking? What terms would you be negotiating? What pitfalls would you be looking out for? What equipment should we be expecting? Basically what do you feel might be our best course of action.

Since you're asking, if I were you, I most certainly would not be asking any questions of or even considering a PPA from SunRun or anyone else.

I'd be snooping around the net for info on refurbished/rebuilt inverters similar to what Keyboard farmer has done. See his post from today in another thread.

In the meantime, see Mike Holt's forum: "Sunpower positively grounded modules" or Google:" Are there still positive ground PV inverters".

In any case besides never leasing or PPA'ing, I'd go a long way before scrapping out a large system, even if it is 14 years old simply because the inverters took a dump - and given that a market in used PV equipment is about nonexistent, that's about what your array is worth if you intend to sell it.

I hope your investment has been recouped in the form of reduced electric bills over the years.

[edustys]

Thank you J.P.M. For your most informative reply.

I believe KeyboardFarmer was replying to me in that thread from today (2/10/22). Fingers crossed, I sent an inquiry to youlovesolar.com in hopes that they can come to my rescue.

Just curious and forgive me for being nosy but do you, yourself, have solar and if you do, what was your arrangement?

[mjs020294]

I am curious as to why anyone would finance solar at the moment. House prices have risen significantly the last three years so most people have equity in their home. Interest rates are at historically low levels. Just remortgage and take cash out for the solar OR get an HELOC.

[SunEagle]

I am curious as to why anyone would finance solar at the moment. House prices have risen significantly the last three years so most people have equity in their home. Interest rates are at historically low levels. Just remortgage and take cash out for the solar OR get an HELOC.

For some reason the banks around here are very picky about giving out a mortgage to either new or existing homeowners. Just be aware of the flaming hoops they ask you to jump through to get money from them.

[mjs020294]

For some reason the banks around here are very picky about giving out a mortgage to either new or existing homeowners. Just be aware of the flaming hoops they ask you to jump through to get money from them.

We recently closed on a HELOC and it was a relatively easy process. I think they just needed last years W2 and a months pay slips from both of us. They took care of everything else and there were limited fees.

[J.P.M.]

Thank you J.P.M. For your most informative reply.

I believe KeyboardFarmer was replying to me in that thread from today (2/10/22). Fingers crossed, I sent an inquiry to youlovesolar.com in hopes that they can come to my rescue.

Just curious and forgive me for being nosy but do you, yourself, have solar and if you do, what was your arrangement?

You're most welcome.

Since you're asking:

I have had a 5.232 kW array of 16 ea. (2 ea. 8 panel strings, each string on its own MPPT) Sunpower 327's with a 5 kW PowerOne (rebadged Sunpower) string inverter and a Sunpower monitor. The system went live on 10/13/2013 solar noon that has so far performed without a skip.

I expect to be in the hunt for a new/replacement inverter soon.

The 2013 before rebate system cost was $25,344 or $4.84/STC W. At the time, it was the least cost/STC W system of all Sunpower residential systems installed in CA up to that time (see CSI reservation # SD-CSI-17646).

My array is, by my design and forethought, less than optimally cost effective in two ways. One, it's all Sunpower which made it about 25 % more costly/STC W up front compared to other products of comparable quality and reliability that were available at the time. And two, it was made less cost effective yet because I intentionally oversized it. But I knew both those attributes walking in. Unlike most folks, cost effectiveness had nothing to do with my decision to add PV.

The oversize was mostly for my own reasons - I'm in a different spot than most folks. I burn through about 7,000 kW /yr. and my electric bills are manageable without PV. But having been around alternate energy for about half a century and being retired, I needed a toy to fill my time and satisfy my curiosity. Those goals turned into something less than a job but more than a hobby. Now I've probably got enough unprocessed data as mental fodder to fool with and satisfy my curiosity for the rest of my life.

An optimally cost effective system for my use would have been a 12 panel LG 260 STC W system (3.12 STC kW) with a 3 kW Sunnyboy string inverter at a cost (from the same vendor) of $3.85/STC W or $12,012 before rebate.

But again, I knew that walking in. I knew the S.P. system wouldn't be cost effective because, 1. It would supply more power than was optimally cost effective and, 2., Do so at a higher levelized cost of power per installed STC W than the most optimally cost effective mix of POCO and PV supplied power (for me that mix was and pretty much still is ~ 80 % PV and 20% POCO power to supply ~ 7,000 kWh/yr. total electrical load).

Contrary to most opinions, process, engineering economics and life cycle costing as I learned them has taught me the most cost effective PV system size is usually less than a 100 % replacement of an electrical load.

Most of what I did and how I went about sizing, design and equipment selection was done with the primary intent of investigating whether or not Sunpower's touted claim of being "most efficient" had any merit. (it doesn't).

FWIW and for the record, I found that while S.P. equipment is fit for purpose and reliable, the stuff is no more so than other quality equipment. It's also much less cost effective.

It would also appear - as we're finding out - that Sunpower itself as a company is no more, or even less reliable than other outfits when it comes to leaving users of their equipment in the lurch than other outfits.

Take what you want of the above. Scarp the rest.

[SunEagle]

We recently closed on a HELOC and it was a relatively easy process. I think they just needed last years W2 and a months pay slips from both of us. They took care of everything else and there were limited fees.

Nice. I am glad it worked out for you.

[edustys]

I am curious as to why anyone would finance solar at the moment. House prices have risen significantly the last three years so most people have equity in their home. Interest rates are at historically low levels. Just remortgage and take cash out for the solar OR get an HELOC.

That’s precisely how we were able to purchase our system way back in 2008. Taking out $65k, reducing the interest rate from 7.5 to 5 and going from a 30-year to 15-year increased our payment by $40 a month. I know those interest rates look horrible by todays standards but coming from a 13% interest rate in 1989 when we bought this house, they sure did look amazing. No doubt, in an effort to curb the current inflationary trend, interest rates will be going up by as many as four .5% increases in the near future.

[silversaver]

7.1kW system might not be enough for you + 2 EVs. My 7.1kW system will produce around 10,500kWh annually now (when new it was 11,600kWh back in 2014)

Depend on how many miles you needs for the EVs, I'll take an average 3-3.4 miles per kWh to estimate. Once you get the total kWh needed for the EVs + your past usage for last 12 months to size your solar system. But I believe SCE (if that is your utilities company) will only allow 100% coverage, then I'll suggest go as large as you can.

Cash, lease or finance is really personal choice since everyone has different status. I will prefer buying the house with cash, but I guess most finance their homes without knowing it is compound interest that you pay most of the interest out front.

Good luck

[mjs020294]

7.1kW system might not be enough for you + 2 EVs. My 7.1kW system will produce around 10,500kWh annually now (when new it was 11,600kWh back in 2014)

Depend on how many miles you needs for the EVs, I'll take an average 3-3.4 miles per kWh to estimate. Once you get the total kWh needed for the EVs + your past usage for last 12 months to size your solar system. But I believe SCE (if that is your utilities company) will only allow 100% coverage, then I'll suggest go as large as you can.

Cash, lease or finance is really personal choice since everyone has different status. I will prefer buying the house with cash, but I guess most finance their homes without knowing it is compound interest that you pay most of the interest out front.

Good luck

Mortgages use simple interest not compounding.

[silversaver]

Mortgages use simple interest not compounding.

Yes, you are right it is simple interest. When you go with 30 yrs then it feels like compound haha. Sorry for the mix up.

[nomadh]

Maybe finance it with a helicopter or as a refi cash out to gain the interest write off to help the numbers.

[nomadh]

Help me out here J.P.M.
Here’s our story: In 2008 we installed a 44 panel (25yr warranty) 2 inverter(10 yr warranty) SunPower system (Positive Ground which was state of the art then) for 66k cash after all was said and done (federal credits). System was operating fine. Our annual true-up averaged about 1.5k per year. My December, 2021 bill showed only 21kwh and January was 33kwh down from average normals of 240kwh -300kwh respectively for that time of the year. Obviously something had gone wrong. A SunPower authorized tech came out, opened the inverters and found that inverter servicing 22 south exposure panels had burned out (interior was scorched).

At some point since our initial purchase the industry went to Negative Ground Inverters. It also now appears that SunPower, knowing that inverters fail, did nothing to support its customers who now own basically ticking time-bombs because once failed there appears to be no replacements nor any work arounds. The remaining inverter (servicing 22 west exposure panels) is still working but for how long is anybody’s guess. To say that we’re profoundly disappointed in SunPower would be an understatement. Of course, we didn’t expect the inverters to last forever but we did expect to have been able to purchase replacements when they did ultimately fail.

We’ve been in contact with SunRun who are offering what I guess is a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) which would install enough panels, at zero cost to us, to generate an overall 9,921kwhs annually at a flat rate of $0.22 per monthly kwh’s used with an annual increase capped at 2.9%. The current rates in our area are $.282 tier 1, $.354 tier 2, and obviously much higher in tier 3 which we will most certainly hit in the hotter California summer months. Additionally, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) will most certainly continue to have more rate hikes as they pay out settlements and incur higher maintenance costs related to their taking responsibility for numerous very destructive wild fires.

For now and perhaps the next 5 to 10 years, the SunRun option looks very appealing but there are always buts aren’t there. If you were us, what questions would you be asking? What terms would you be negotiating? What pitfalls would you be looking out for? What equipment should we be expecting? Basically what do you feel might be our best course of action.

Wow. Not heard of the negative ground problem but you aren't considering scrapping g all your panels and starting over are you? Even if wiring and inverter need to switch are not the panels still a proper DC source for whatever new inverter you go with?

[Ampster]

Maybe finance it with a helicopter or as a refi cash out to gain the interest write off to help the numbers.

I have heard of helicopter parents but never helicopter loans? Perhaps spell check is messing with HELOC. When I typed HELOC, It gave me the choice of helicopter or holocaust. Go figure.