Can I get some last minute advice before signing contract?

[Roy Shultz]

To mods, I think I had too many edits and got flagged for spam. You can delete the old post assuming this one works.

Thank you for your reply. I hadn't considered the insurance angle, do you know what is driving that?

To get my desired system performance I'll have to purchase (2) 7.6kw inverters, (2) backup modules, and (2) RESU-16 batteries. It didn't make sense to have >15kw of inverter capacity and only 11.3kw of panels so I had them max out my roof and I'll now have (38) 365w solaria panels for 13.8kw of capacity. I probably need to call Solar Edge and verify, but my installer is now telling me that if I get a generator it will only power one of my two electrical panels due to being wired through the solar edge backup module. Since my costs went up pretty considerably, the generator would only power half the house, and they're charging me way too much for the generator I'm considering dumping it from the system and just going panels and battery. As I understand it under grid outage conditions ditching the generator will lose me a little capacity on cloudy days and will limit me to battery power at night and that's it -- can anyone verify my accuracy here?

One uncertainty I have under outage conditions (assume sufficient sunlight): will my PV power the batteries and the batteries power my home, or will my PV directly power the home with any excess going to the batteries? Since the batteries can only hack 5kw and it'll be one battery per inverter/200A service, they may not be enough to run my air conditioners but if the PV is directly powering the house I should be fine (I am upgrading my 23 year old HVAC to Bosch variable speed AC units, that should be a major help in my start-up surge and constant use draw).

That is an awesome grid, and I would think it would do the job for you. The batteries will give you 32kw total usable energy at night (if full before nightfall) and the system is maxed out the best it can be for doing the job for you. I have an Enphase system and only 20.2 battery total (10% of that unusable as it won't completely run batteries dead), and if they don't get filled up good before nightfall or it rains late eve., they won't last until morning with our Florida high nighttime temps with cycling of the AC. Remember my grid is only 9k, so I do not have the generating capability that you will have, nor the extra storage you will have with this setup. From what I know, this is as good as you can get to have the ability to keep and use all your energy and get enough in the batteries to last the night. You will be tier 2 though, so I would check with your home insurance on that matter and question your sales rep. as to the possible extra hoops you may have due to going to tier 2 in regards to the power company. The insurance angle is what I believe is the power company and government just trying to limit your independence. That is my opinion. As far as the batteries and grid providing the home during an outage, adding the batteries is a huge plus, and although you don't get much amperage out of the grid, the 1.2 or so per panel (AC) times 38 will do you well during the day if outage, and your batteries should keep you running ok, but they should put in a sub panel isolating huge loads - electric dryer, water heater, stove, and if you don't have it already I would buy a hybrid water heater as it will save you a bunch of energy usage, and mine helps a bunch to cool the garage as it acts as an air cond. pulling in heat and putting out cold air. My outside unit only draws 22 amps, which is pretty good but not variable speed, but with your new unit being variable speed, you should be able to use your main AC, and will help with your night usage of battery immensely.

[mikedunkel]

Thought I'd report back a year after the fact. The process took a very long time, I think my first consult was May, they started installation in June, completed installation in September with 1 faulty battery, got approval to operate mid-September, and finally got the faulty battery replaced in May -- 1 year from consult to fully operational.

My initial thought is "f*ck". I spent a lot on this system and it will never do what I wanted. In the winter I can generate up to 75kw of power in a day which is far in excess of what I use. Since the generation and my usage don't happen at the same time I still end up buying some from the utility and selling a bunch back at about a 4:1 cost ratio. Of course there are also a lot of clouds in the winter so while my peak generation is higher, my average generation is a lot lower. In the summer I'm lucky to get more than 50kw in a day due to intermittent cloud cover and decreased efficiency of the panels in the heat. My batteries don't ever charge since I use up all the generated electricity to run the air conditioning and pool pump -- I'd need a LOT more panels to compensate which would be complete overkill in the winter.

My 2nd thought is "f*ck". While I paid for the system, it's not really mine. Solar Edge and my installer still have full control over the modes my system operates in and if there's a problem (which there often is) there's nothing I can do about it without assistance from one of these companies. Without internet I'm not even sure the system will keep running, and I'm 100% certain that the 1st hiccup without internet and it's down. This completely defeats the purpose of having a solar system as a long term backup in the event of a major disaster. I get a major fault in my inverters at least once per quarter that requires help from above, this thing will never be a prepper's salvation.

My 3rd thought is "f*ck". This system will NEVER pay for itself. After the federal tax credit it cost about $45k. I am saving roughly $130/month in the summer and $50/month in the winter on my electricity. Even if I round way the f up to an average of $150/month saved we're talking 25 years to pay for itself. But since I'm not even saving that much on my best month and the equipment won't work as well the older it gets this entire endeavor has been a huge money loser. Potential saving grace would be if state law changed and I was able to sell electricity back to the utility at a comparable rate to which I pay for it. Another way this could be better is if the cost of electricity goes up drastically. Finally, it should help my property's resale value for a buyer as ignorant as I was when I decided to add solar to my home .

If I had to do it over, I'd have just purchased a generator that ties into my buried CNG tank and called it good.

[soby]

Regarding your three f*cks:
1) Your utility net metering sucks. Your state is to blame for that. Without significantly more battery storage, you have no choice but to give the excess power to your utility at a significant discount.

2) You can register for a SolarEdge installer account and your installer can add that login as an admin on only your site. That’s what my installer did for me early on. I have full access to the battery storage profiles that sync online. If your power and internet go out, the system will automatically go into backup mode and there isn’t much configuration involved.

3) Again, your state is to blame. There can be state/utility incentives for both solar panels and battery storage that help accelerate the years to break even. Your utility wants you to stay dependent and makes sure your lawmakers keep it that way.

[Mike 134]

Now that you have 20/20 hindsight help the next guy before he has the same unfortunate outcome. Looking back how could this been prevented?

[mikedunkel]

Now that you have 20/20 hindsight help the next guy before he has the same unfortunate outcome. Looking back how could this been prevented?

My issues are 2-fold. As Soby mentioned the state you live in matters, if the state lets the utility screw you on net metering and there are no state level incentives then making your money back is a pipe dream. Issue 2 is storage, because our net metering sucks I purchased 32KWH of storage which added roughly 33% to the cost of my install. For me, the storage was so my system wouldn't shut off in the event of a grid outage, not because of my area's terrible net metering. Even with crummy net metering the batteries don't do a whole lot. The only time my batteries fully charge is on sunny days when the AC isn't running. On those occasions I really don't use that much electricity at night either so I don't even fully discharge the batteries. During AC months (probably 7 months of the year here) even with full sun the batteries won't fully charge -- heck, they usually don't even charge 10% above whatever level I have set as their floor. Without the batteries the system would've eventually paid for itself but that $$ would've been far better used as an investment.

Right now, the only reason to get solar (assuming you have grid access) is to make an expensive virtue signaling statement. Maybe if the incentives were right, you don't mind if your system turns off during a grid outage, and you already have an electric car then you could skip the batteries and you'd rarely send anything back to the grid (or if you were fairly paid for what you sent back).

One other thing which is difficult to assess but has bit me in the butt. I've had mostly negative experience with Solar Edge, LG, and Suncatcher of Atlanta. That's 0 for 3 on the solar companies I've worked with 1st hand. I looked at Tesla and a couple other local installers and I thought I selected the best of what was available. Frankly I feel like I bought a ticket on Spirit, these companies are not reliable, responsive, and don't even understand their own products. The technology, local expertise, and competition just aren't there yet. The news wants to make you think solar is a responsible choice, but it's just not there yet. Too expensive to buy, way too little return on investment, and poor customer service all around. I'd skip it entirely if I had this knowledge a year ago.

[OCJ]

It seems to me you can achieve your stated goal of this:

My desired system performance is to basically run the entire house during a power outage as if there wasn't a power outage, assuming daytime and full system performance.

By letting your batteries charge to full and leaving them there. Perhaps periodically discharge them to 50% and recharge monthly but not on a daily basis.

If your goal was ROI and using your batteries daily that would be another analysis. You would need your solar output in kWh to be greater than your daily 24-hour usage + losses in order to cycle your batteries to full every day.

Right now, the only reason to get solar (assuming you have grid access) is to make an expensive virtue signaling statement.

This might be the case where you are but it's certainly not the case where I am. I'm in SDG&E so I have $.70 peak pricing, TOU, and net metering. My ROI with just panels would have been around 5-6 years, with the battery (Powerwall+) probably a couple more years. I didn't buy the battery for ROI, though, I bought it for convenience and control over how and when I send to the grid. Plus I may get some or all of it paid for which again drops my ROI. Your blanket statement does not apply to all areas of the country.

[Cshama]

It’s sad to see all the disappointment out there. I got lucky when did my solar. I got it at $1.13/kw from a competent local company. But without electricity being very expensive in NY and unlimited net metering it stil wouldn’t make sense.

The calculation is complex but if your payoff is more then 3 or 4 years, solar doesn’t make that much sense given the downsides.

[Ampster]

The calculation is complex but if your payoff is more then 3 or 4 years, solar doesn’t make that much sense given the downsides.

I agree the calculation is complex. I also believe the downsides need to be weighed against the upsides. Everyone will have difference cost of funds and a different need for a hedge against future cost of utility expense. Finally there is the satisfaction that some derive from a hobby.

[ktran1]

get F150 lightning extended range, it has 130KWH with super charge, it can power your house when grid drop.

[Mike 134]

It’s sad to see all the disappointment out there. I got lucky when did my solar. I got it at $1.13/kw from a competent local company. But without electricity being very expensive in NY and unlimited net metering it stil wouldn’t make sense.

The calculation is complex but if your payoff is more then 3 or 4 years, solar doesn’t make that much sense given the downsides.

That a typo on the cost? I was at $1.34/w just for the solar materials this past spring. That does not include permits and engineering stamps. Drawings I did myself along with the install.

[SunEagle]

get F150 lightning extended range, it has 130KWH with super charge, it can power your house when grid drop.

If those trucks are even available for a descent price. None close to me unless I want to get on a waiting list for an extra $$$$

[J.P.M.]

If those trucks are even available for a descent price. None close to me unless I want to get on a waiting list for an extra $$$$

But it is 130 kWh.
Just a thought, but how much would we pay for 130 kWh of stationary battery capacity ?
Besides, auto gouging prices probably won't last forever and you'd still have a truck - although buying it primarily as a storage battery for time shifting the draw from the POCO would probably take some mind shifting as well.

[SunEagle]

But it is 130 kWh.
Just a thought, but how much would we pay for 130 kWh of stationary battery capacity ?
Besides, auto gouging prices probably won't last forever and you'd still have a truck - although buying it primarily as a storage battery for time shifting the draw from the POCO would probably take some mind shifting as well.

Since I do not have a TOU rate shifting my usage is not an action I would take. I would like an EV truck but for now even the F150 is not in my price range even if it did have a big battery to use when the grid is down.

[ktran1]

You get battery and a truck. Wait time to order is close for 2022. Cost under 60K

[SunEagle]

You get battery and a truck. Wait time to order is close for 2022. Cost under 60K

That cost may be for you but not here in Florida. What I have seen is closer to 80K and a very long wait.