Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates.

[khanh dam]

I looked through my quotes from local dealers (Bloomington, IN). and ground based solar quotes from $1.26/watt to $1.80/watt. That hits a payback of about 7 years.

Who the heck is installing for that cheap. Ground mounts typically cost $.20/w and materials alone are around $.90/w so they are making a whopping .16/w. a 10kw system would be $1600 gross profit before taking out labor and overhead? sign up for that price before they go out of business.

But thank you for actually looking up what installers are charging instead of just right fighting me.

[heimdm]

I looked through my quotes from local dealers (Bloomington, IN). and ground based solar quotes from $1.26/watt to $1.80/watt. That hits a payback of about 7 years.

[foo1bar]

might want to click on the google roof top solar link in my original post. that's bad advice. you would loose money in NC, SC, GA, and TX for sure.

the whole point of my post was to NOT generalize where solar can be good or bad. for people to understand how net metering works in their state and if their co op, municipality, or utility even offer it in their city.

If your point of your post was to NOT generalize, you failed.

You said "Cost of $3.44/kw BEFORE any rebates or tax credits $2.58 after tax credits."
And your subject line was "Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates." - which is certainly not true, and definitely a generalization.

I pointed out that $3.44/W (using the correct units) is significantly more than a savvy consumer should be paying.
Years ago it was $2.75/W to $3/W.
Now it is probably even less, depending on where you live.

google rooftop shows me $3.02/W in my location and $2.88/W for a system at an address I chose in Durham, North Carolina.
Not sure what your point is that I should click on the link to google rooftop - it seems to support my assertion that a savvy consumer should be paying $3/W or less.

But here you are giving gross generalizations to all 50 states that I guarantee are bad advise in many of them.

It may be a generalization that in the vast majority of places $3/W or cheaper is a reasonable price for solar installations.
BUT
it is a generalization that I think applies to the vast majority of locations.
I live in a high cost area, and it's true here.
So there are going to be very few places where it isn't true that you can do under $3/W for a solar install. (my guess would be everywhere but HI and AK and maybe some very remote spots where there's no competition.)
And it is in direct response to YOUR generalization of "$3.44/kw"

LOL, you ever look at a truth in lending statement from a solar company. The interest rates are wayyyy higher than 6%.

Not in >5 years.
IIRC they were not attractive options at the time.
If your point was to complain about how some companies offer "financing" that's really crappy for the consumer, you really failed in your subject line and your starting post.
That issue is not unique to solar. And it certainly is sad that there are a lot of consumers who use really bad financing options because they don't do the research they should. But that's pretty tangential to your original post.


There are certainly many companies that are not a good choice to the consumer. And a lot of them doing a lot of advertising.
But that does not mean that consumers can't find solutions that make financial sense in majority of the US like you claim.

If your point was that consumers should be cautious and carefully evaluate what they're buying, I'd agree with you.

But that isn't what you started this thread with.

[organic farmer]

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technically 46out of 50 states have net metering laws, but many of those laws do not apply to Municipalities or Co-Op. if one googles' STATE NAME, ELECTRICITY UTILITY MAP, one can get a feel for which areas are solar friendly. so for example in this map red does not equal republican voters, those are co-ops which may or may not have net metering. only the white areas are required by law to have net metering. Situation is very similar for many states.

When I was being quoted the crazy prices for a net-metering system, our local power company gave me a copy of their contract. I have no idea of what the state requires of them, but they do not pay for any power homeowners put onto the grid.

I found the Maine state Public Utility map



But other than to say which power company handles my county, it does not provide much information.

[khanh dam]

cheap power (coal) will be gradually going up in price.

Coal is expensive, not cheap, which is why so many coal plants are being shut down.

[PVAndy]

That is correct. About $30 is a fixed charge but after that it's .232 cents which will be defrayed by the solar

Attached is a copy of my United Illuminating Net Metering showing charges which are offset

[Cshama]

The 4 cents is only one component of the charge, Coned rates are around 23 cents/kwh. Conn & Mass rates are about 24 cents/kwh

That is correct. About $30 is a fixed charge but after that it's .232 cents which will be defrayed by the solar

[CharlieEscCA]

My provider Duke gives us power at around $0.12/kwh. However, this year we got a 10% rate increase, and then started piloting TOU (time of use rates), and those rates hit $0.40 to $0.55/kwh. I think the writing is on the wall that cheap power (coal) will be gradually going up in price. Maybe that is correct, maybe it isn't, its a bet...

We need to keep politics out of this forum, but it's not political to say energy costs are going up when that's the reality of the current environment.

[PVAndy]

Sorry you are wrong. Quick google search shows Con Ed does in fact charge around 23 cents/kwh, but 2/3rd of that is in taxes/fees/regulator stuff and therefore only 8 cents/kwh????? is due to what you are being charged.

NYC Con Ed customers face big rate hike - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)



Their website clearly shows about 4 cents/kwh. so my advice is you better figgure out exactly how Con Ed Charges you to determine financial benefits.


My very first install with a 6kw grid tie system was with an electrical co-op and they had confusing net metering fees. However it pales in comparison to the confusing crap on Conjob Edison's site.

Seriously good luck. Hope the math works out for you. I would call con ed and get them to explain their BS rates.

The 4 cents is only one component of the charge, Coned rates are around 23 cents/kwh. Conn & Mass rates are about 24 cents/kwh

[heimdm]

My provider Duke gives us power at around $0.12/kwh. However, this year we got a 10% rate increase, and then started piloting TOU (time of use rates), and those rates hit $0.40 to $0.55/kwh. I think the writing is on the wall that cheap power (coal) will be gradually going up in price. Maybe that is correct, maybe it isn't, its a bet...

[khanh dam]

It all depends where you live and what the rates are for your utility.

Yep, and what their net metering terms are, which might vary from city to city in one state. Beginners just assume pay back will be about the same in one area. Gastonia NC is 20 minutes away but their buy all / sell all terms with 3 cents pay back make solar a horrible investment vs the place I live now that is standard 9.6 cents in and 9.6 cents out.

[CharlieEscCA]

It all depends where you live and what the rates are for your utility.

We have crazy rates here in San Diego.

Our rates range anywhere from $0.26 to $0.55 per kWh, depending on summer or winter rates and time of day.

At those rates, my professionally installed system on my new house build at $2.84 per watt less 30% tax credit (install started in 2019) has a pretty short payback -- definitely worth the investment to me (and to me is what matters, it's my investment, so I get to determine if it's worth it).

But, if I could get electric at $0.06 to $0.12, I'd skip the solar.

[khanh dam]

$2.75 to $3/W is what a savvy consumer should be paying. (maybe less these days)

might want to click on the google roof top solar link in my original post. that's bad advice. you would loose money in NC, SC, GA, and TX for sure.

the whole point of my post was to NOT generalize where solar can be good or bad. for people to understand how net metering works in their state and if their co op, municipality, or utility even offer it in their city. But here you are giving gross generalizations to all 50 states that I guarantee are bad advise in many of them.

[khanh dam]

If you're paying 6% for a home equity loan, don't buy solar, fix your credit so you're not paying 6%. HELOC and HEL rates are 3.25 and 3.75% at my local credit union. (probably cheaper elsewhere)

LOL, you ever look at a truth in lending statement from a solar company. The interest rates are wayyyy higher than 6%. How do you think they get the 0.99% loans? They pay up to 25% loan fees and these are passed onto the buyer. You have no idea how corrupt at least a 3rd of the solar sales companies do this. Then they tell their reps that they are so lucky to have these financial tools to help people go solar. Apply for a local solar sales job, you will get hired after a 5 minute phone call or 10 minute interview and see how these loan companies operate.

[foo1bar]

Professionally installed solar is a financial loss almost every where in the USA, .

Not true.
It is true that you can overpay for a solar system pretty much everywhere in the USA, and have it not be a financially sound decision.
Because there will always be a company willing to overcharge you.

Cost of $3.44/kw BEFORE any rebates or tax credits $2.58 after tax credits.

I think you mean per *watt*, not per kw. And $3.44/W would be overcharging IMO.
If it were $3.44/kw, that means a 10kW system costs $35. I'll buy 5 of those.

$2.75 to $3/W is what a savvy consumer should be paying. (maybe less these days)

If one gets a 6% Home equity loan from a bank then the investment winds up being negative ROI.

If you're paying 6% for a home equity loan, don't buy solar, fix your credit so you're not paying 6%. HELOC and HEL rates are 3.25 and 3.75% at my local credit union. (probably cheaper elsewhere)

it has become aparent to me, almost all solar sales are scams. By scams I mean your investment typically takes 15 or more years to break even or you are at a negative rate of return with your money.

Having done two installations - one DIY on my own home, the other buying a turnkey installation on my church - I can say that solar installations are not all >15 year breakeven.

Personally, my DIY installation was 8.96kw. It cost me $26,251 to build it. I got a rebate of $12,385 from the power company, and federal tax credit of $4160. So my net out of pocket was $9707.
I turned it on in April 2015. It has produced 69,901 kwh since then. At my local electric rate of $.10803/kwh that is $7500.
So it hasn't quite yet saved me as much money as it cost me up front to build - but in a year it will have reached that point.
So way under 15 years for breakeven. I had estimated 5-6 years before building, but looks like it will be ~6.5 years.
Prices have come down for solar products since then - but the tax benefit and power company rebate has decreased as well.
And if it hadn't been for the tax credit, I probably would have done some parts, like the service upgrade, as a separate project, and would see a shorter break-even.

The large install I acted as the buyer for the church for was a 57kW installation. It has been producing 80,000kwh/year. Up front cost was $163.5k.
No rebates, no tax benefits. Power company rate isn't straightforward with their time-of-use rates - but ~$.17/kwh is good enough approximation. So it's saving about $13,600/year.
So 12 years to "break even" - and that's with NO tax breaks. Power production will probably decline over the next 10 years - so maybe it'll be 13 or 14 years. Or maybe power prices will go up enough that it'll be 11years. In any case it's likely to be in that 10-15 year range, and therefore financially viable.