Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates.

[J.P.M.]

LOL yep blame me JPM! dont' blame the person who ASSumeed something that was not implied. brillant! as if banning someone over a price disagreement was justified to begin with.

When I write/speak about a matter, I try to put myself in the other people's shoes and think of what I need to include to do my best to ensure I'm providing enough information so that my meaning/intent is not misconstrued while not talking over people's heads, and at the same time being as economical in text as possible. That may be one reason why I've been told I tell people how to build a watch when they ask me what time it is. I suppose that's a fair criticism.

Seems to me, opinion only, you have the opposite problem. IMO, you leave a lot for folks to infer by your posts. As a respectful suggestion, you may try engaging your brain before you write stuff and try to imagine how your words and meaning(s) will be perceived.

Looks to me like you got banned not over a price issue per se, but because Pete thought you posted something grossly inaccurate. I merely suggested that if you had provided the information you subsequently posted that you might not have drawn a week's stay in detention. You call it blame. I call it my opinion based on observation.

While no one can know what others will infer by their statements, we can all usually reduce the probability of miscommunication by thinking before we speak/write and putting ourselves an the other person's shoes.

You have the final word on the subject if you choose. I'm done with it.

[khanh dam]

Plus the labor to put the modules on so, you probably end up near $4-5k..

i disagree wtih your calculations that assumes labor and inverte prices in the future will be less than it is currently

[khanh dam]

Which is a bit more involved than the simple inverter replacement you seemed to imply.
Maybe if you had been as specific about what you considered to be included in your opinion of what constituted an inverter replacement as you explain above, you might not have drawn a temporary ban.

LOL yep blame me JPM! dont' blame the person who ASSumeed something that was not implied. brillant! as if banning someone over a price disagreement was justified to begin with.

[J.P.M.]

I asked on the facebook solar installers group what installers would charge to swap out an old inverter. one said $125/hr, two said $2000 USD or more.
Per NEC a new permit would be required which is going to be $100-$200 in many places, because there is no way a 16 year old inverter will be available.

Then add to the fact that if they have a Solar EDge or other proprietary RSD modules that are not compatible with the new inverter,
the entire array of 15 to 30 panels would have to be pulled up and serviced with new module level electronics.
add the cost of a new inverter and it easily exceeds $5000. USD

I wish I lived in Australia where RSD is not the law, prices are cheap, etc.

Which is a bit more involved than the simple inverter replacement you seemed to imply.

Maybe if you had been as specific about what you considered to be included in your opinion of what constituted an inverter replacement as you explain above, you might not have drawn a temporary ban.

[SunEagle]

I think to say that replacing 16 year old technology with optimizers/microinverters as a like for like replacement may be a bit of a stretch. If you are replacing a 16 year old inverter without module level diagnostics, the like replacement probably be something like a SMA Sunnyboy. As you mentioned, most US states require rapid shutdown. The Sunny boy Rapid shutdown modules are $35 x 30 panels, about $1k. The replacement inverter is $1k-2k. Plus the labor to put the modules on so, you probably end up near $4-5k.

The rapid shutdown and other requirements, there is the safety aspect, but lets be honest utilities had microgrid, and will do whatever they can to make it more difficult. If utilities were actually concerned about backfeeding during a power outage, shouldn't the electric meter have the intelligence in it to prevent the current flow during a utility outage. Its less about solar or the solar contractors and more about the utility industry displeased about being displaced.

Well most meters can run backwards or send power to the grid based on their technology. Why would a POCO invest in expensive "smart" meters with the ability to stop power going back onto the grid when it is the responsibility of the co-generator (homeowner) to provide that equipment?

If you want more tech from the POCO remember they have added solar and batteries but not without asking for higher prices from their customers. I just saw a news cast that Duke power will be asking for a 18% increase from the PUC to help pay for all of the additional solar they are putting in.

Solar and batteries provided by the POCO is not cheap and someone will pay for it.

[heimdm]

I think to say that replacing 16 year old technology with optimizers/microinverters as a like for like replacement may be a bit of a stretch. If you are replacing a 16 year old inverter without module level diagnostics, the like replacement probably be something like a SMA Sunnyboy. As you mentioned, most US states require rapid shutdown. The Sunny boy Rapid shutdown modules are $35 x 30 panels, about $1k. The replacement inverter is $1k-2k. Plus the labor to put the modules on so, you probably end up near $4-5k.

The rapid shutdown and other requirements, there is the safety aspect, but lets be honest utilities had microgrid, and will do whatever they can to make it more difficult. If utilities were actually concerned about backfeeding during a power outage, shouldn't the electric meter have the intelligence in it to prevent the current flow during a utility outage. Its less about solar or the solar contractors and more about the utility industry displeased about being displaced.

[khanh dam]

BUT I just gotta call BS on this gem from khan dam, " After 16 years your solar inverter will likely die and cost $5000 to replace making your net savings close to zero." what crap, I don't know of any inverter that will likely cost 5K now forget about 16 years when they are more common, cheaper than now and better. So have holiday for a week khan dam you are giving me and others here the ****s, .....

I asked on the facebook solar installers group what installers would charge to swap out an old inverter. one said $125/hr, two said $2000 USD or more.
Per NEC a new permit would be required which is going to be $100-$200 in many places, because there is no way a 16 year old inverter will be available.

Then add to the fact that if they have a Solar EDge or other proprietary RSD modules that are not compatible with the new inverter,
the entire array of 15 to 30 panels would have to be pulled up and serviced with new module level electronics.
add the cost of a new inverter and it easily exceeds $5000. USD

I wish I lived in Australia where RSD is not the law, prices are cheap, etc.

[J.P.M.]

Military industry is pretty close, wall street is closer, big banks are the closest. Solar industry with the ITC is not bad. Average Joe/Jane working for wages is not so much. Peasants workng for peanuts in foreign countries that can't print the world's reserve currency are at the tail end.

Thank you.

[J.P.M.]

Confucius say........50% of people are above average. The problem is that 90% of people believe that they are above average.

In other words, if you do not know how to do a proper financial analysis....then find someone you trust who can.

Confucius also say ...People who fool around in pantry get ass in jam.

Problem I see with that 90 % Dan, is that maybe something like 90% of the folks considering solar not only don't know how to do a financial analysis, but don't as much as know one may be necessary beyond initial cost/annual savings.

[DanS26]

Confucius say........50% of people are above average. The problem is that 90% of people believe that they are above average.

In other words, if you do not know how to do a proper financial analysis....then find someone you trust who can.

[solarix]

Military industry is pretty close, wall street is closer, big banks are the closest. Solar industry with the ITC is not bad. Average Joe/Jane working for wages is not so much. Peasants workng for peanuts in foreign countries that can't print the world's reserve currency are at the tail end.

[J.P.M.]

The governments in the US spew so much money in all directions (because the FED can create money for free) that the prices of everything are driven up. Cost of living is high and people that are close to the trough have no trouble affording solar, and those not so close to the trough can't. End the FED....

What is "Close to the trough" ? and who is/is not close to it ?

[solarix]

The governments in the US spew so much money in all directions (because the FED can create money for free) that the prices of everything are driven up. Cost of living is high and people that are close to the trough have no trouble affording solar, and those not so close to the trough can't. End the FED....

[J.P.M.]

Hi All,
I really for the life of me cannot understand why solar cost so much more in the States than it does here, something is wrong, what are you guys doing over there?

Since your question seems more than rhetorical:

Nothing much - and that may be part of the problem. No concerted action from a nation that now has a higher %age of folks who are more self centered than in the past.

Seems to me one of the consequences of the great dumbing of America.

By way of some sort of analogy, what do you expect from a society that has, for one example, health care costs that are higher than just about anywhere else on earth, but with not much to brag about in terms of the population's overall health ? Lots of finger pointing but not much in the way of solutions or even consensus.

As for solar applications' cost, in the U.S. solar tends to be a toy of the more well heeled and tends to be more out of reach to the less affluent, so maybe price is a bit less of a concern for the targeted segment than is keeping up with the Joneses. People who are mostly ignorant of what the problem is much less what sane solutions might be throw money and PV in sometimes almost panic fashion at self inflicted high electric bills - with the perception of the high bills made made to be perceived even higher by bombarding consumers about robber POCO's, outrageous rates and consumer helplessness in the face of the evil POCO and such - all of which which may have a kernel of truth in it, but turned into almost a caricature and making the problem worse and more costly than it may be with no mention of more cost effective options to the what you call costly PV. All the while, the solar industry and peddlers sell to the market made more lucrative for the solar industry by inflating/implying POCO costs that are more draconian than they actually may be and implying they (the PV industry are the way, the truth and the light out of the dilemma.

Bottom line, it's successful marketing. Not a sin. Just the way it is and what happens when social entropy is left to its own devices and a society gets dumbed down as a consequence. Watch the movie "Idiocracy". We're becoming a nation of mouth breathing knuckle draggers. Some day we may be cleaning our panels with Gatorade.

Just my $0.02.

[SunEagle]

Hi All,

If we had no incentives here in OZ a 10kW system using good equipment say 370 watt Canadian Solar panels and a Fronius 8.2kW Inverter would cost between 13K to 15K depending on some install variables. At the moment with the STC's deducted it cost between 8K and 10K

I think you guys would be better served with a system like ours, all new solar systems installed in Australia with equipment on the approved list installed by licenced solar /electrical professionals are entitled to create STC ( small scale technology certificates) to which large corporate entities who spew pollution into our environment are required to buy an amount of STC's every year to offset the amount of pollution they create. This way you dont need to be paying a large amount of tax to get your 30% tax break, to me it seems a much fairer system to all citizens.

I really for the life of me cannot understand why solar cost so much more in the States than it does here, something is wrong, what are you guys doing over there?

I know that each state has their own plan concerning solar. Some have POCO's that are mandated by law to allow and encourage a pv system. Other POCO's can turn the head and ignore or even prevent solar pv systems. We do not have a standard rule here in the US and we also have so many companies that want to earn a big buck from selling a pv system that there hasn't been any incentive to lower the price. I guess it will be determined someday by both local and federal government but it may be too late for people like me that just can't justify spending $15k and not see a return in their life.