Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates.

[khanh dam]

I agree with much of what has been stated. In the past twelve years I have been involved with six installs. The first was a self install in 2009 and solar panels cost $5.00 a Watt then and a 2.5 kW grid tie inverter was $2000. The next one was a professional installer that cost about $4.00 a Watt in 2014 and the last one was in 2017 and cost about $3.25 a Watt. All of those systems have had reasonable paybacks in part because I have been able to leverage TOU rates by charging EVs with stored energy credited at rates that our two to three times what I pay at off peak to charge the EVs.

good move. My next big purchase will be an EV. I was going to get a BOLT, but used car prices are high due to Covid 19, might wait another year.

[Cshama]

23.2 cents per kwh in new york? Sounds high so I googled
Con Edison rates and got this website

https://apps.coned.com/CEMyAccount/csol/MSCcc.aspx

Jesus Christ all mighty. Your rates are 4 cents per kwh?

Am I reading this website right? Market Rate based pricing? God help me another complicated utility price plan no wonder solar financial are so hard to figure out.

If it was 4 cents I would never have got solar. They charge overall .232 per kw. I use about 18k kwh over a year. My bill averages $360/month.

The math calculates correctly I believe.

The only question is are the production estimates I got actually correct. On that one we will see. PVWatts confirmed it as did various retailers but who knows.

But if they are I see a 4 or 5 year payback which I think is reasonable.

I am a novice at this and I am interested in other people's opinion.

[khanh dam]

Examples of consumer ignorance abound. Hell, no need to look any further than this forum. .

If you really want to see your head explode read some of the posts on the facebook sales groups. Warning your head might explode.
Solarpreneurs | Solar Sales & Lead Generation Strategies | Facebook
or how about this gem: how to handle solar objections group
Solar Objections | Facebook
or this group where people are routinely told get rich stories of selling solar
Sales Talk with Solar Pros | Facebook

[khanh dam]

If it was 4 cents I would never have got solar. They charge overall .232 per kw. I use about 18k kwh over a year. My bill averages $360/month.
The math calculates correctly I believe.
.

Sorry you are wrong. Quick google search shows Con Ed does in fact charge around 23 cents/kwh, but 2/3rd of that is in taxes/fees/regulator stuff and therefore only 8 cents/kwh????? is due to what you are being charged.

NYC Con Ed customers face big rate hike - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)

We do everything we can to hold down costs in the part of the bill we control," said Con Ed spokesman Michael Clendenin. "Two-thirds of the bill is comprised of supply costs and government taxes and fees, which we do not control. We always work with customers having difficulty paying their bills, and can work with them on payment plans that can spread out the costs.

Their website clearly shows about 4 cents/kwh. so my advice is you better figgure out exactly how Con Ed Charges you to determine financial benefits.


My very first install with a 6kw grid tie system was with an electrical co-op and they had confusing net metering fees. However it pales in comparison to the confusing crap on Conjob Edison's site.

Seriously good luck. Hope the math works out for you. I would call con ed and get them to explain their BS rates.

[khanh dam]

I am a novice at this and I am interested in other people's opinion.

Don't feel bad, solar is a big learning curve. and I've been reading solar forums for years and done 3 installs. It was not until I explored selling solar panels, and googling dozens of net metering agreements from several states and doing the math have I realized how complicated and unprofitable solar systems are IF ONE GETS A 6% LOAN (AND MOST SOLAR LOANS ARE HIGHER). I remember reading 10 years ago how 8 cents/kwh was some crazy cheap rate and in many parts of the country it is. However it is also true that in many parts of the country 6 cents is an average rate 10 years latter.

Doing the math and googling the boring net metering contracts is what will really open your eyes.

Dont' take anyone's advice on this or any other forum for granted because most people have not done the homework for your specific billing rate and they do not understand the fees/structure.

Solar is a long term game, a few percentage off on this or that can easily change the long term outlook.
For example www.pvcalc.org seemed like a great ROI calculator, but the net metering buy back rate by default is set too high and the instructions do not tell you to set it to your own $/kwh giving you faster pay off and the average utility increase/year which drastically affects financial outlook does not work. So at best it can only tell you the financials based on assumption that there are no utility rate hikes.

[chrisski]

I began to realize solar does not provide a payback when I found out in areas that have houses above average income, the installation rate is around 10%, but in lower income housing areas, solar is nearly non existent. If it paid to install it, you would think solar panels on roofs would be a hot commodity there.

This, amongst other reasons was why I was hoping the solar credit was not renewed, but I now see this credit never going away.

[Ampster]

I began to realize solar does not provide a payback when I found out in areas that have houses above average income, the installation rate is around 10%, but in lower income housing areas, solar is nearly non existent. If it paid to install it, you would think solar panels on roofs would be a hot commodity ........

It probably has more to do with the fact the people with higher incomes have more disposable. In other words, more money is left over for other things after basics. It is a concept from Economics 101.

[Ampster]

Quick google search shows Con Ed does in fact charge around 23 cents/kwh, but 2/3rd of that is in taxes/fees/regulator stuff and therefore only 8 cents/kwh????? is due to what you are are being charged.

A quick Google search shows that most cost analyses use the all in cost of a commodity including all other fees when comparing alternatives.
In California i can choose a different provider for the generation portion of my bill. In that case the other fees including distribution are charged. However when I generate my own energy I reduce my bill by all the fees in the kWh rate. I just pay any fixed connection fees. Perhaps that is what you saying.

[organic farmer]

Public Utility grid power is the cheapest source of power.

But if you settle in a community where the closest grid power is over 20 miles remote, then the conversation shifts to comparing the operating costs of generators.

To me, it makes no difference what the cost of grid power is, if you can not afford the setup costs of running power lines into your township.

Running a generator is expensive, and it ties you directly to the logistical system used for petroleum.

The tenth time that you load up your truck with oil drums, to make the trek into the city to buy generator fuel, that is when you realize that there must be a better alternative.

[Cshama]

Sorry you are wrong. Quick google search shows Con Ed does in fact charge around 23 cents/kwh, but 2/3rd of that is in taxes/fees/regulator stuff and therefore only 8 cents/kwh????? is due to what you are being charged.

NYC Con Ed customers face big rate hike - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)



Their website clearly shows about 4 cents/kwh. so my advice is you better figgure out exactly how Con Ed Charges you to determine financial benefits.


My very first install with a 6kw grid tie system was with an electrical co-op and they had confusing net metering fees. However it pales in comparison to the confusing crap on Conjob Edison's site.

Seriously good luck. Hope the math works out for you. I would call con ed and get them to explain their BS rates.

When doing my calculations I use the actual end number I am being charged which is 23.2 cents not 4 cents. That makes sense to me when actually looking at the numbers and the payoff.

I expect to pay about $20/month once the solar is up and running.

It should also be noted that my provider is the most expensive in the country so that makes my PV payoff much shorter then most or so my back of an envelope calculations show.

My only doubts are if I will achieve the power generation promised, if coned will retain net metering, and if the company i chose will be competent. But mathematically it seems to make financial sense.

[khanh dam]

When doing my calculations I use the actual end number I am being charged which is 23.2 cents not 4 cents. That makes sense to me when actually looking at the numbers and the payoff.
I expect to pay about $20/month once the solar is up and running.

Nope you are being charged 4 cents/kwh according to their website. For all I know you have $200/month in service fees which wont' be reduced by solar. Or the taxes and fees could be proportional to the energy used.

But I do know for a fact that when a company structures their costs like this, it is ALWAYS WITHOUT A DOUBT IN THIER FAVOR, market rate pricing BS like ConMan Edison does are never to your benefit when they are a paltry 4cents/kw.

I wish you the best, but if you come back months latter saying you didn't' save as much as you thought because you just ASSUMED the 19 cents/kwh was relative to energy used but instead was actually more so fixed service fees, I would not be surprised at all.

those that fail to understand the math will fail to get the right answer.

[khanh dam]

A quick Google search shows that most cost analyses use the all in cost of a commodity including all other fees when comparing alternatives....... Perhaps that is what you saying.

Nope. What I'm saying is don't listen to people on forums that make vague generalizations like you just did, if you really want to understand the financial math behind solar. You have no clue how Con Edison's market based rate system works. How the hell do they charge only 4 cents/kw on thier website I linked to, but the aveage cost of 23 cents/kwh is one of the highest in the country. I have no idea, never even heard of a rate structure based on the market.

I'd not going to spend 1-3 hrs reading all the crap on thier website to figgure it out and I know if I call them they will dismiss me once they realize I am not a customer.

edited to add: Typical co-op or muncipal complaint is that net metering fees are $25 to $50 fixed fees per monthly bill vs $10- $15 for a non solar house. The utilities screw you over with fixed fees that solar will not lower. Advising people to just use "all in cost" just because that is what works in your state is bad advice.

[khanh dam]

I began to realize solar does not provide a payback when I found out in areas that have houses above average income, the installation rate is around 10%, but in lower income housing areas, solar is nearly non existent. If it paid to install it, you would think solar panels on roofs would be a hot commodity there.

100% cash DIY solar installs will provide a good payback 3-7 years in almost all cases. 100% cash professionally installed solar will provide a good payback in 7 -10 years many times.
BUT financed solar panel professional installers will often make one loose money and 90% of all pro installs are financed. Not only do the home owners borrow money needed for solar they get cash advanced for the loan in the form of "no utilites for first year" or $2000 rebate checks or other BS loan advances. When a sales person's goal is to sell you a loan that is a negative investment that is a flat out scam.

[khanh dam]

Here in APS territory of Arizona, I've personally sold and installed hundreds of systems with virtually all of them about a 7 year pay back time. Energy Sage lists our area as $2.20 to $2.65 /watt installed. We routinely are $2.00 /watt or less. I agree there are many ripoff solar companies out there and CA must have some kind of sky high cost of living to justify the $3.50/watt I generally see. No wonder so many people are leaving the coast...
Go on Solarreviews.com for your area, find a reputable local installer and show you are passionate about solar when applying for a job.

solar reviews is where I got my $3.00/w after rebate quotes. It used to be good years ago (actually gave you estimated costs, fees, etec) , now' it's just a funnel for scam solar companies. . There are around 12 companies selling solar in Charlotte, NC. Of those 12, maybe 2 or 3 actually install panels. The rest are just loan companies that sell solar loans and get a third party sub contractor like Titan to install the system. I've seen pictures of their installs on the facebook solar installer forums. They use rubber feet for attaching racking to a roof instead of flashing. Will it leak 15 years from now? maybe? Maybe not? but why use your customers as guinea pigs when its a couple dollars more for proven flashing that has worked. Just to save a few bucks.

Thanks for providing solar to your customers at reasonable prices. Arizona has tons of sun so that is a big benefit making it easier to sell solar there probabaly.

[RDiekmann]

100% cash DIY solar installs will provide a good payback 3-7 years in almost all cases. 100% cash professionally installed solar will provide a good payback in 7 -10 years many times.
BUT financed solar panel professional installers will often make one loose money and 90% of all pro installs are financed. Not only do the home owners borrow money needed for solar they get cash advanced for the loan in the form of "no utilites for first year" or $2000 rebate checks or other BS loan advances. When a sales person's goal is to sell you a loan that is a negative investment that is a flat out scam.

100% cash DIY solar installs will provide a good payback 3-7 years in almost all cases....Bingo! for us. 3, maybe 4 year. Total Cost $7400, DIY 6400Kw - SMA SB 5kw - ground mount - Nor Cal Sierra Nevada foothills at 1400 ft el. Brother and Sister-in-law work at 2 different outfits....Inverter and panels at cost...Did entire project myself - 45 days...Shopped the net and eBay, Amazon for best price on other items...