What kind of SCE bill should I epect with NEM2 if my solar produces more than I use?

[Duxa]

Hi all, Im new around here, so please be gentle

I am currently in the process of planning out my solar install, and am trying to figure out when my break even date would be. I am currently on tiered plan (19c, 24c, 42c), but I used Excel and calculated out what my bill would be if I was on TOU, and its basically within 5% of tiered situation.

Now, I will have to transition to TOU after installing solar and with it come some weird things, like daily minimum charges, basic charges, and credits. How do all these impact NEM2.0 and solar?

Lets hypothetically say that I generate more than I use. How much should I expect my bill to be with all of these minimum daily charges and basic charges etc?

TOU info - https://www.sce.com/residential/rate...ial-Rate-Plans

Thank you!

[Ampster]

...........
Now, I will have to transition to TOU after installing solar and with it come some weird things, like daily minimum charges, basic charges, and credits. How do all these impact NEM2.0 and solar?

Lets hypothetically say that I generate more than I use. How much should I expect my bill to be with all of these minimum daily charges and basic charges etc?
....

It depends on a lot of factors including which rate plan you choose. The minimum is about $10 per month. The unknown is the Non Bypassable Charges which are unique to NEM2.0. They amount to about $0.02 per kWhr of everything you use (net of what you generate during any 15 minute period) In other words, even though you may overall generate more than you use the NBCs accumulate in a separate bucket. I have not been through a full year on NEM2.0 yet but I believe they may be offset by the minimum charges so if you can keep them roughly equal to the minimum that is all you may have to pay.
The other issue at True Up is the orther bucket separate from NBCs and that is any surplus if you were to generate more than you use. That is accumulated at retail rates but at True Up those kWhrs are discounted and you get a credit at the wholesale rate (about $0.04 per kWh). The only exception is if you are in a CCA in which some of that might get paid at a higher rate depending on the policy of the CCA. What part of SCE territory are you in?

[Duxa]

It depends on a lot of factors including which rate plan you choose. The minimum is about $10 per month. The unknown is the Non Bypassable Charges which are unique to NEM2.0. They amount to about $0.02 per kWhr of everything you use (net of what you generate during any 15 minute period) In other words, even though you may overall generate more than you use the NBCs accumulate in a separate bucket. I have not been through a full year on NEM2.0 yet but I believe they may be offset by the minimum charges so if you can keep them roughly equal to the minimum that is all you may have to pay.
The other issue at True Up is the orther bucket separate from NBCs and that is any surplus if you were to generate more than you use. That is accumulated at retail rates but at True Up those kWhrs are discounted and you get a credit at the wholesale rate (about $0.04 per kWh). The only exception is if you are in a CCA in which some of that might get paid at a higher rate depending on the policy of the CCA. What part of SCE territory are you in?

Im in Orange County.

so the confusing part is, do you pay either NBCs or minimum charge whichever is higher? Or do you pay both (additive) ?

[FFE]

If your goal is to offset all of your kWh or carbon dioxide then others can help. If you goal is to pay as little as possible then here is what you need to consider. As the economics of grid tied solar evolve in SCE territory, I believe a sixty to eighty percent offset of your historic consumption with a TOU plan has the shortest payoff. You will pay SCE about the same amount of money each year for a system that covers eighty to one hundred percent. This is a result of minimum charges that SCE currently is approved to bill. I expect the minimum to increase over time.

I have a different approach than most to this question. Many will suggest a nine thousand plus data point plus spreadsheet to figure this out. I would recommend a simple method. You really only have to consider how many on and off peak kWh you plan to use each billing cycle. About seventy percent of your solar production will be off peak and thirty percent on peak. Look at your past bills on and off peak kWh for the billing period. You will want to basically generate enough to cover twenty percent more than your on and off peak useage that it appears you downloaded and figured out. Then you will buy super off peak kWh at night to pay SCE the minimum charge and actually get something for your money. If you have or plan to get a plug in car or currently use a lot of energy at night then everything is a little different. By a lot of energy at night I mean more than fifteen kWh per night.

[RichardCullip]

Im in Orange County.

so the confusing part is, do you pay either NBCs or minimum charge whichever is higher? Or do you pay both (additive) ?

The least you will pay is the monthly minimum charge. If you consume more energy then you generate with your solar, there's a chance that the NBCs will total up more then your minimum charge. In that case you will pay the higher amount.

Down here in SDG&E territory, I'm 9 months into a new solar installation. I'm currently generating more energy with my solar than I'm using. I'm a net producer by design since I will be adding an EV later in the year so I wanted spare capacity to be used once I commit to buying an EV. So far I've been paying the minimum each month, which down here is $0.338 per day or about $10.14 per month. If I break that down, the NBC charge makes up 40% of my bill.

BTW - my solar generation breaks down to 11% On-Peak, 21% Super Off-Peak and 65% Off-Peak. My household use breaks down to 32% On-Peak, 23% Super Off-Peak and 45% Off-Peak. My NBCs (by kWh) make up 42% of my total kWh consumption.

[J.P.M.]

The least you will pay is the monthly minimum charge. If you consume more energy then you generate with your solar, there's a chance that the NBCs will total up more then your minimum charge. In that case you will pay the higher amount.

Down here in SDG&E territory, I'm 9 months into a new solar installation. I'm currently generating more energy with my solar than I'm using. I'm a net producer by design since I will be adding an EV later in the year so I wanted spare capacity to be used once I commit to buying an EV. So far I've been paying the minimum each month, which down here is $0.338 per day or about $10.14 per month. If I break that down, the NBC charge makes up 40% of my bill.

BTW - my solar generation breaks down to 11% On-Peak, 21% Super Off-Peak and 65% Off-Peak. My household use breaks down to 32% On-Peak, 23% Super Off-Peak and 45% Off-Peak. My NBCs (by kWh) make up 42% of my total kWh consumption.

With apologies to the OP for the short thread sidetrack/hijack:

Richard:
Thank you for the breakdown. Since we're relatively close geographically, it's good information for me as confirmation of what/how I do my stuff.
That is, your generation %ages pretty much match mine w/in a couple % since 04/15/19 as I'd sort of expect being as close as we are.
Our usage patterns are different as I'd expect. I'm higher in off peak usage (62%%), 16% super off peak and 22% on peak, but that usage is for the prior 365 days rather than 9 months.
Q: Did you get usage from the SDG & E 15 minute data or on site consumption metering ?
Q: To clarify, is your household use before or after generation ?

Regards,

[DrChaos]

Im in Orange County.

so the confusing part is, do you pay either NBCs or minimum charge whichever is higher? Or do you pay both (additive) ?

It isn't so clear. In SDG&E territory as others have said, the NBC's count towards a "minimum bill", which is denominated in cents per day. But if there is some kind of baseline monthly fee which there can be in some utilities and plans, then NBC's would be additive on top of it.

Generally how you should think about it is with two running accounts over the year. One is the actual hard-money account with real cash, and the second is your generation credits which are denominated in dollars but can't fully be converted to real money. Minimum bill, NBC's, taxes and monthly fees accumulate in the hard money account as stuff you owe. State of CA will refund about $66 per year in the 'climate credit to that'. Your solar production gives you credit to the fake money account, which will be drawn upon to provide for electrical consumption (excluding the NBC's) at the utility's rates. But at the end of your year, any excess generation credit evaporates. If you have a debit in that account (owe money) then that transfers over to the hard money account and you owe it for real. If you are an excess generator in physical kWh per year, as a totally separate credit, you will get paid on the hard money account, but that rate is really small and it is only about total excess energy generated regardless of time of use.

[RichardCullip]

With apologies to the OP for the short thread sidetrack/hijack:

Richard:
Thank you for the breakdown. Since we're relatively close geographically, it's good information for me as confirmation of what/how I do my stuff.
That is, your generation %ages pretty much match mine w/in a couple % since 04/15/19 as I'd sort of expect being as close as we are.
Our usage patterns are different as I'd expect. I'm more higher in off peak usage (62%%), 16% super off peak and 22% on peak, but that usage is for the prior 365 days rather than 9 months.
Q: Did you get usage from the SDG & E 15 minute data ?
Q: To clarify, is your household use before or after generation ?

Regards,

J.P.M - I use SDG&E 15 min data which I download daily. This gets broken down into TOU periods and summed up by day, month or billing period depending on how I want to summarize it. I then combine that with my solar output which I gather from SolarEdge using their API via a spreadsheet macro. From this data I can combine the net energy use from SDG&E and the solar production from SE to calculate the household consumption data.

The data I presented above on both solar production and household consumption is the full 9 month history summed up by TOU periods and converted to percentages.

Hope this helps clarify the percentages I posted on solar generation and household consumption.

BTW - I'll probably get bored with tracking stuff daily and dial back my interest to weekly or billing period soon after I go thru one complete net metering true-up period. I enjoy the challenge of building spreadsheets and automating the processes with macros much more than I enjoy using the resulting spreadsheets on a daily basis.

[J.P.M.]

J.P.M - I use SDG&E 15 min data which I download daily. This gets broken down into TOU periods and summed up by day, month or billing period depending on how I want to summarize it. I then combine that with my solar output which I gather from SolarEdge using their API via a spreadsheet macro. From this data I can combine the net energy use from SDG&E and the solar production from SE to calculate the household consumption data.

The data I presented above on both solar production and household consumption is the full 9 month history summed up by TOU periods and converted to percentages.

Hope this helps clarify the percentages I posted on solar generation and household consumption.

BTW - I'll probably get bored with tracking stuff daily and dial back my interest to weekly or billing period soon after I go thru one complete net metering true-up period. I enjoy the challenge of building spreadsheets and automating the processes with macros much more than I enjoy using the resulting spreadsheets on a daily basis.

Thank you for the response and clarifications. I believe we're getting to pretty much the same place with similar but still different methods.
I appreciate the results of any analyses and view programming/spreadsheet work as sort of a necessary drudge and a means to an end. I can do the programming/spreadsheet work but not as well as most others. While I understand the daily routine getting old, I much prefer the analysis part of the task. Kind of like I used to enjoy engineering design and any field work/startup/troubleshooting on the other end but not the necessary drudge of writing up results/findings of the efforts.

Back on topic for me.

[Ampster]

Im in Orange County.

Long term Orange County is looking at a Community Choice Aggregation program which may have some impact on the rate you are paid at True Up for excess generation. That may be some time off so has no bearing on the current discussion. It is a broader trend in California worth mentioning if only to suggest that change is inevitable.

[Duxa]

Long term Orange County is looking at a Community Choice Aggregation program which may have some impact on the rate you are paid at True Up for excess generation. That may be some time off so has no bearing on the current discussion. It is a broader trend in California worth mentioning if only to suggest that change is inevitable.

Do you think it would be a negative impact or positive impact? I am actually in one of the cities that are spearheading this program.

[Ampster]

Do you think it would be a negative impact or positive impact? I am actually in one of the cities that are spearheading this program.

I think it will be positive. CCAs are a logical continuation of the trend in California to deregulate the generation portion of our energy consumption. I have spent a lot of time becoming more informed about CCAs and attended many of the formation meetings of Clean Power Alliance which began in the Beach Cities of Hermosa and Manhattan Beach. It has grown to encompass Los Angeles and Ventura County and could account for over fifty percent of the generation revenue of SCE.
Subsequently I moved to Sonoma and was automatically opted into Sonoma Clean Power. I ordered a $500 charging station at a subsidized cost of $100 and allowed them to turn it off any time the grid was stressed. For that I receive a $5 a month credit and they have never had to turn it off. I may also receive a several hundred dollar refund in March from SCP for a generation credit. They have already reduced that for the future to use those funds for other incentives. This is the first year in this home with this solar system and my long term goal is to not have any bill for energy. The SCP dividend will cover my minimum charges and my NBCs and I intend to manage my usage accordingly. One of my EVs has a free charging network so I have some discretion about some of my EV charging at home.

[RichardCullip]

Hi all, Im new around here, so please be gentle

Now, I will have to transition to TOU after installing solar and with it come some weird things, like daily minimum charges, basic charges, and credits. How do all these impact NEM2.0 and solar?

Lets hypothetically say that I generate more than I use. How much should I expect my bill to be with all of these minimum daily charges and basic charges etc?

Thank you!

Lets see if a real-life example can help. Granted it's my SDG&E territory so some of the nitty gritty TOU rate details will be different but, as far as I know NEM 2,0 and the resulting NBCs are calculated basically the same in Calif

I'll use my December bill as the example

For that billing period I was a net producer overall. For the On Peak Period I used 128 kWh and had net production of -21 kWh for the Super Off-Peak period and -127 kWh for the Off Peak period.

The first step in the billing process is determining what I was charged for those 128 kWh of On-Peak usage. My TOU-DR rate for On-Peak was $0.358 per kWh. However, since I didn't exceed my base line limit, there was a -$0.095 baseline credit applied so the resulting rate was $0.263 per kWh for a total of $33.66

The next step is to apply the generation credit I get for being a net generator for the month. The generation credit is calculated from the the amount of Super Off-Peak and Off Peak kWhs however, the actual amount of credit applied to this billing period is limited by the amount I was charged for those 128 kWh of On-Peak usage minus the non-by-passable charges (NBCs) associated with those 128 kWhs. In this billing period that worked out to be -$30.61. Almost, but not quite covering the On-Peak charge. The difference is those pesky NBCs that can't be eliminated under NEM 2.0 rules. So far my bill stands at $3.05. But wait, we're not done yet accumulating charges. There's a DWR bond charge of $0.005 per kWh resulting in a small $0.64 charge. Total so far is $3.69.

The next step is to calculate what I owe for the NBCs for any 15 minute period in which I drew more energy from the grid then I generated with my solar production. This data is awkward to verify from the SDG&E billing statement so I need to do a bit of work. I download the 15 min interval data from SDG&E's website into a spreadsheet and add up any the positive values for net usage ignoring the periods of negative values. The positive values represent the net energy I drew from the grid. These are the kWhs I need to pay NBCs on. The negative values are represents the net energy I sent to the grid. For this billing period that adds up to 262 kWhs. However, SDG&E already charged me for the NBCs for the 128 kWhs of On-Peak usage so I don;t have to pay for those NBCs twice. This results in 134 kWhs of NBCs for which I am charged $3.14. With this process I can match the number of NBC kWhs that are documented on my SDG&E bill. It only took me a couple of months of banging my head on my keyboard to figure out how SDG&E was coming up with the separate NBC line item charge on my bill.

With me so far? As it stands at this stage of the calculation SDG&E has charged me $3.69 for the kWhs I drew from the grid (my On-Peak usage) and $3.14 for my NBCs. This totals up to be $6.83 but wait, there's one last step since SDG&E has a minimum daily charge of $0.338 for my TOU-DR rate plan. So they add $3.31 of minimum charge adjustment (including a few pennies for some taxes) to get to my final bill total of $10.14 (30 days in this billing period).

Thanks for hanging in if you made it this far in my random walk thru SDG&E's billing process. I'm sure SCE and PG&E have a similar process depending on the details of the specific rate schedule used.