Newbie looking for suggestions before responding to solar quotes received

[NJturtlePower]

Hi sunpowered

Wow! Thanks for sharing. Never heard of that before. I'm not sure that Tesla could collect the SREC's on a system they didn't own. That would be like me continuing to collect SREC's on a home I sold to someone else.

But it could very well be deceptive or just sloppy / ignorant marketing practices -- I'm not sure how many folks have historically purchased Tesla solar solution.

OR, it's possible what it might have been trying to say is that Tesla would manage the submission of PV production data on your behalf -- for which the would take a commission. When I got my system from GPE, GPE offered to manage my SREC's for me at something like $10 commission per SREC. I decided just to do it myself.

Not sure. But good catch either way.

-Jonathan

They (Tesla) try to offer it up front as an incentive/discount, but in reality it's an SREC buyout of sorts.

I was offered $6039 on my at the time quoted 10.98 kW system which is roughly the value of 2-years generation of SREC's for the buyer and the other 8-years to Tesla.

It's not required, but they do offer the quotes by default that way until it's questioned.

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[sunpoweredev]

Hi sunpowered

Wow! Thanks for sharing. Never heard of that before. I'm not sure that Tesla could collect the SREC's on a system they didn't own. That would be like me continuing to collect SREC's on a home I sold to someone else.

But it could very well be deceptive or just sloppy / ignorant marketing practices -- I'm not sure how many folks have historically purchased Tesla solar solution.

OR, it's possible what it might have been trying to say is that Tesla would manage the submission of PV production data on your behalf -- for which the would take a commission. When I got my system from GPE, GPE offered to manage my SREC's for me at something like $10 commission per SREC. I decided just to do it myself.

Not sure. But good catch either way.

-Jonathan

I can no longer access that page with the assign SREC to Tesla checkbox, but here's a paragraph from the agreement. I spoke to the rep on 3 occasions and I smelled the typical salesman BS right away. Not a single mention of the SREC being assigned to them by default.

Tesla.JPG

[JSchnee21]

Amazing. I guess the SREC buyout might be of interest to some folks. Especially given that new SREC agreements are only 10yrs. Of course 2 years worth of credit in exchange for 10 still sucks. But some folks might prefer the guaranteed "return" versus the SREC market risk. I've already made my ~$6K or so from SREC's in my first two years of system ownership. Got another 13yrs to go. Generally I make more on SREC's than I do saving on my electric bill (roughly equal, but SREC has been winning out). At least while SREC prices are in the ~$200-220 range.

[J.P.M.]

[QUOTE=sunpoweredev;n399263]

1) I looked up my electric bill over the past 3 years while still in my research phasea. It is strangely consistent, almost like clockwork the month to month consumptioin pattern. So as far as lowering my consumption, I'm afraid there's not much that can be done, at least not without giving up some of the "luxuries" such as two 24/7 computers running my cable DVR.
2) Based on the estimated ROI of 5-6 years, I definitely want to have the PV system. I know that that ROI timeframe takes SRECs into account and that SREC value can and does fluctuate.
3) Most of the system design proposals I received claims 100% offset. On my chosen design, I entered all parameters into PVWatts as accurately as I know how, and the estimated output is actually higher than what my installer's estimate is. Nothing is guaranteed especially how much sunshine one gets, nevertheless I did what I could to verify.
4) Panasonic is one of the most highly regarded manufacturer, and since the price is right compared to other proposals I received with cheaper panels, it's a win/win. Had the cost difference been something like 20%, yes I likely would've picked another panel.

In the end, nothing is guaranteed, but I did my due diligence and made what I believe to be the best choice.

Understood.

If don't use electricity as your heating and cooling source, or if you use it for both in a truly moderate climate, your annual electric bills probably won't vary as much as those who live in, say, Phoenix with a high annual cooling load.

On your #3, it's not at all surprising to me that your modeled output exceeded the vendor's estimate. It's usual and common for vendors to underestimate system annual output. Around my area, it's usually a 10 % under estimate in output and from what I've seen, that's a pretty consistently 10 %. That makes it easier to B.S. the trusting and equally solar ignorant with some technical looking paperwork and some fancy jargon and sell them more than they need. All that B.S also makes things more costly for no long term benefit to the person buying the system and paying the electric bills. I'm ignorant of what the usual oversizing practice is where you are but I bet it's common and I bet just as much denied by vendors. The red herring excuse vendors use for what is, in effect, disingenuous oversizing is that the weather varies. The reality is they do that to sell more product and also to keep ignorant users who are clueless about annual system variability from going ballistic over a few bad months or any single 12 month trueup that's more than they were led to believe. They (the users) also don't understand that any year's system output will vary, maybe by 10 % or more, up or down, primarily due to weather variability, but with model input that is a reasonable representation of reality, 20 times the model's annual output will probably be pretty close to the system's total 20 yr. output. All this off the radar output underestimating (== system oversizing) does little more for the owner than reduce system cost effectiveness, and leave money on the table. It benefits the vendor because they make money by putting more equipment on residential property and the more they (over)sell, the more money they make. No salesman ever got fired for selling too much.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[macaddict]

JSchnee21 You just made me look at my numbers. Ever since I got my panels (June 2017), I've saved $2,458 which would've been my electric consumption and I've made $4,160 on SRECs...

SRECs are not a bad deal. For all the high taxes we pay in NJ, glad I live in NJ because it has SRECs...

[ericy]

JSchnee21 You just made me look at my numbers. Ever since I got my panels (June 2017), I've saved $2,458 which would've been my electric consumption and I've made $4,160 on SRECs...

SRECs are not a bad deal. For all the high taxes we pay in NJ, glad I live in NJ because it has SRECs...

I had no idea that one could still get this much - I am just across the bay in Delaware, and we are only getting 82$/MWh. Our contract is from 2015 - I gather that newer contracts are even less than this. Then again our taxes are quite a bit lower than yours .

[JSchnee21]

Hi macaddict,

Yes, SREC's in NJ have been a great deal so far. Especially since our electrical rates are very inexpensive here in NJ, ROI based on PoCo savings alone would take quite a while in NJ. Just after I got my system, my mother-in-law was interested in potentially getting a system for her house in PA. But PA's SREC market is very poor -- $15/MWh last I checked. So we decided it just wasn't cost effective for her even though PECO rates are slightly higher than JCPL/PSEG.

I've been wanting to get me one of those new more efficient, variable speed HVAC systems to replace my old 1997 < SEER10 clunker. But even if I were to save ~$1K a year on HVAC electric, it would take 8 to 12 years to break even depending on the cost of the replacement HVAC system. But more than anything, I want better humidity control, particle filtration, and my wife wants lower velocity more moderate temperature supply air. So we may do it anyway once our Solar and most recent car are paid off.

I like the idea of Mini splits -- especially since our bilevel is only a single zone which is aweful. But I'm concerned that retrofitting these into our fully finished home would make a mess of things. We have no basement, and the attic is truss based with uneven flooring and full of stuff (it's our only storage space).

[J.P.M.]

Hi macaddict,

Yes, SREC's in NJ have been a great deal so far. Especially since our electrical rates are very inexpensive here in NJ, ROI based on PoCo savings alone would take quite a while in NJ. Just after I got my system, my mother-in-law was interested in potentially getting a system for her house in PA. But PA's SREC market is very poor -- $15/MWh last I checked. So we decided it just wasn't cost effective for her even though PECO rates are slightly higher than JCPL/PSEG.

I've been wanting to get me one of those new more efficient, variable speed HVAC systems to replace my old 1997 < SEER10 clunker. But even if I were to save ~$1K a year on HVAC electric, it would take 8 to 12 years to break even depending on the cost of the replacement HVAC system. But more than anything, I want better humidity control, particle filtration, and my wife wants lower velocity more moderate temperature supply air. So we may do it anyway once our Solar and most recent car are paid off.

I like the idea of Mini splits -- especially since our bilevel is only a single zone which is aweful. But I'm concerned that retrofitting these into our fully finished home would make a mess of things. We have no basement, and the attic is truss based with uneven flooring and full of stuff (it's our only storage space).

FWIW, and although this may seem counterintuitive, humidity control in a residential cooling application is best achieved by not oversizing A/C equipment. If an air conditioner is oversized, its run times will be less with the result that less moisture will be wrung out of the air, resulting in higher indoor relative humidity and a higher probability that the place will feel "clammy". This can also happen when a lot of envelope tightening takes place, reducing the air in/exfiltration rate resulting in fewer air changes and also lowering the cooling load which in effect makes the cooling equipment oversized.

Also, depending on system/duct design, smaller capacity central units often run quieter with less duct noise due to smaller air flowrates.

Mini splits have some real advantages, and if I was building now, that's the way I'd probably go, but sometimes they are a 2 edge sword: Air distribution is not one of their usual strong points. That door can swing both ways with respect to convenience.

Bottom line: if you do replace HVAC, get a recent and accurate HVAC heating/cooling load for the dwelling, size the equipment, whatever it winds up being, properly including reasonable duty cycles (run times), and know that for cooling considerations, bigger to the point of oversizing is not the best option with respect to humidity control, and may very well be counterproductive.

Another option, although a less optimal solution if HVAC replacement is being considered, is to get a dehumidifier, which is really no more than a small air conditioner.

[NJShore]

UPDATE: Ive narrowed down to 3 installers - GPE & Sundial who I met with today and NJSolar who I'll meet with tomorrow.

GPE quote was Upfront Net $26.1K , Panasonic

VBHN330SA17 HIT & SolarEdge inverter. Before any meetings,

had NJSolar & Sundial update quotes to also be Panasonic. NJSolar (which also included Solaredge) was Upront Net $22.6K and did included 4 less panels. Sundial had Ensage listed and their Panasonic panel quote was $25.9K.

Although didnt disclose any pricing to anyone of course, still before meeting when GPE learned we'd be paying in full, they reduced quote & Upfront Net dropped by $2K.
Then we met them 1st, they adjusted panels 39 to 36 and Upfront dropped to very close to NJSolar.

Had high expectations for GPE from their reputation & phone conversation and I not only wasnt disappointed but was outright impressed. Sundial went well and going in was a distant 3rd but learning about micro vs string inverter (which I dont pretend to fully grasp) did sound much better. Seems lot of online divide opinions on string vs micro.

Meeting with NJSolar in the morning who is no longer much different pricing wise with GPE pricing adjustments.

[NJShore]

FYI -- is it cool to post EnergySage price comparison quotes here or any point? Comparison is up to date, currently shows all three's current quotes.

[J.P.M.]

FYI -- is it cool to post EnergySage price comparison quotes here or any point? Comparison is up to date, currently shows all three's current quotes.

As long as the post is accurate, where's the harm ?

Just don't be disappointed if another poster gets a better price from the same vendor. Kind of like whore referrals in reverse.

[sunpoweredev]

UPDATE: Ive narrowed down to 3 installers - GPE & Sundial who I met with today and NJSolar who I'll meet with tomorrow.

GPE quote was Upfront Net $26.1K , Panasonic

VBHN330SA17 HIT & SolarEdge inverter. Before any meetings,

had NJSolar & Sundial update quotes to also be Panasonic. NJSolar (which also included Solaredge) was Upront Net $22.6K and did included 4 less panels. Sundial had Ensage listed and their Panasonic panel quote was $25.9K.

Although didnt disclose any pricing to anyone of course, still before meeting when GPE learned we'd be paying in full, they reduced quote & Upfront Net dropped by $2K.
Then we met them 1st, they adjusted panels 39 to 36 and Upfront dropped to very close to NJSolar.

Had high expectations for GPE from their reputation & phone conversation and I not only wasnt disappointed but was outright impressed. Sundial went well and going in was a distant 3rd but learning about micro vs string inverter (which I dont pretend to fully grasp) did sound much better. Seems lot of online divide opinions on string vs micro.

Meeting with NJSolar in the morning who is no longer much different pricing wise with GPE pricing adjustments.

Looking at your EnergySage quote, $2.76/watt is a great deal. I'm also paying in full and could not get him to come down from $2.91/watt, although I was able to get them to drop the 3% credit card surchage so that was effectively ~$1000 off. I told them I was burned before with a contractor that after paying a 50% deposit they did half the job and disappeared, so I wasn't comfortable in paying 65% before anything is even started. Paying by credit card at least gave us a tiny bit of peace of mind, plus earning a good chunk of points

How did you come to the $26.1K figure? 36 Panasonic panels x 330watt = 11880watts * $2.76 = $32789. After 30% federal tax credit is $22952.

FYI, GPE payment schedule is 10% upon signing agreement, 55% when they have all permits granted and they start to order the equipment, then 25% the day they being physical installation, final 10% when you receive PTO. All but the initial 10% incur 3% surcharge if paid by credit card.

Edit: curious, who was the salesman you met with at GPE?

[sunpoweredev]

Just don't be disappointed if another poster gets a better price from the same vendor. Kind of like whore referrals in reverse.

I'm disappointed

[NJturtlePower]

Looking at your EnergySage quote, $2.76/watt is a great deal. I'm also paying in full and could not get him to come down from $2.91/watt, although I was able to get them to drop the 3% credit card surchage so that was effectively ~$1000 off. I told them I was burned before with a contractor that after paying a 50% deposit they did half the job and disappeared, so I wasn't comfortable in paying 65% before anything is even started. Paying by credit card at least gave us a tiny bit of peace of mind, plus earning a good chunk of points

How did you come to the $26.1K figure? 36 Panasonic panels x 330watt = 11880watts * $2.76 = $32789. After 30% federal tax credit is $22952.

FYI, GPE payment schedule is 10% upon signing agreement, 55% when they have all permits granted and they start to order the equipment, then 25% the day they being physical installation, final 10% when you receive PTO. All but the initial 10% incur 3% surcharge if paid by credit card.

Edit: curious, who was the salesman you met with at GPE?

I meant to ask you about your payment terms, but now I see why your numbers were a good amount lower than mine since paying in full vs financing.

GPE/Tim claimed he had dropped the upfront financing fee ($2k or so) but there is obviously something still built in there for them vs the number you guys got/are getting. My quote for the 330W Panasonic panels was at $3.30 p/w financed, dropped to $2.96 by going to the 325w Hanwaha's.

At sunpowereddev's numbers my size (12.35kW) system would have been about $4800 less if I went with the Pano panels and paid cash/in full.

At NJshore's numbers it would be almost $6700 less.... great prices for sure but I'm still happy to be moving forward and made the roof and all possible.

NJShore You might want to take a hard look (or at least get the quote) at the Hanwha DUO-G5's I'm going with...if GPE pricing is close to consistent you could save about $3500 on the switch for a 36-panel 11.7kW system or add a panel or two and still be less than the Pano quote. The difference in output, probability of panel failure or usability of the "extended warranty" is nearly zero IMO and research, you'll be paying a premium for brand alone while the more important components (inverter/optimizers) all stay the same where the warranty DOES matter due to much much higher rate of failures.

[sunpoweredev]

I meant to ask you about your payment terms, but now I see why your numbers were a good amount lower than mine since paying in full vs financing.

GPE/Tim claimed he had dropped the upfront financing fee ($2k or so) but there is obviously something still built in there for them vs the number you guys got/are getting. My quote for the 330W Panasonic panels was at $3.30 p/w financed, dropped to $2.96 by going to the 325w Hanwaha's.

At sunpowereddev's numbers my size (12.35kW) system would have been about $4800 less if I went with the Pano panels and paid cash/in full.

At NJshore's numbers it would be almost $6700 less.... great prices for sure but I'm still happy to be moving forward and made the roof and all possible.

NJShore You might want to take a hard look (or at least get the quote) at the Hanwha DUO-G5's I'm going with...if GPE pricing is close to consistent you could save about $3500 on the switch for a 36-panel 11.7kW system or add a panel or two and still be less than the Pano quote. The difference in output, probability of panel failure or usability of the "extended warranty" is nearly zero IMO and research, you'll be paying a premium for brand alone while the more important components (inverter/optimizers) all stay the same where the warranty DOES matter due to much much higher rate or failures.

Yeah I was a bit surprised that financing the system carry such a price premium. I thought when financing stuff (cars namely), they always make a bit more from the backend deals with the banks. I know car dealers (except Tesla) frown upon cash sales.