Question on different Time of Use plans with SCE.

[josefontao]

I've had solar panels for over 4 years now. Loving it. But each year it seems SCE keeps jacking up the prices.
I have been on TOU-D-A, which I believe is no longer an option.

What plan is the better plan out there these days? I see that SCE now only offers TOU-D-4-9PM, TOU-D-5-8PM and TOU-D-PRIME.
I have a plug in hybrid that I only charge during Super Off peak, but these bastards no longer offer super off peak? What kind of crap is that?

Is TOU-D-A still the way to go, or TOU-D-PRIME better?
I cant believe summer on-peak pricing under TOU-D-A is 51 cents per kwh.

Does anyone have a spreadsheet calculator?

[ButchDeal]

This seems to spell them out pretty nicely.

https://www.energytoolbase.com/newsroom/blog/sces-final-decision-rates-pt-1-residential-rate-changes

and OPs production is still cranking almost 1kW or so around 6:00 pm

[josefontao]

According to SCE's own plan calculator, TOU-D-A is the better option, however the calculator does not include the rates for TOU-D-PRIME.

[maximizese]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but does anyone know when "grandfathering" ends for those under NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0 contracts? Is it just 5 years after the date of permission to operate (PTO)? I'm sure many of us will make lifestyle adjustments. I know I'll be changing my thermostat schedule and perhaps looking into getting a more efficient central AC. My biggest drain would be the 2 EVs we charge overnight...55kWh some nights. A friend of ours who worked as an energy consultant warned us that this is where utilities were headed because of the boom in solar installation. He said in there was so much production during the day, but zero overnight that power plants would have to come online to meet demand while finding energy storage during mild-sunny peak hours. Utility companies are focused on revenue protection and customers producing their own energy has created an issue to their business model. We'll see what happens, but it looks like microgrids will be a policy solution.


Residential Grandfathering

Residential customers who qualify for grandfathering include:

• NEM-1 customers who choose to be on a time-of-use rate before the new TOU periods are implemented
• NEM-2 customers would have to install prior to Q4 2020 to continue to remain under the legacy TOU periods
• Customers can receive grandfathering protection for 5 years from the date of the initial permission to operate was issued, but not past July 31, 2022
• It's estimated that starting in October of 2020, non-grandfathered residential customers will be transitioned to either TOU-D 4-9pm or the TOU-D 5-8pm rate
• It's important to note that grandfathering protection only applies to the TOU periods. Customers will still be subjected to any changes in charges of the rate structure.

[josefontao]

It ends on 2022

[josefontao]

With the new TOU rates it makes no sense to have an EV or plug in hybrid car from a savings point of view. It will be the same or more money than to pay for gas. That stinks! They sure are screwing with the EV car folks.

[Ampster]

With the new TOU rates it makes no sense to have an EV or plug in hybrid car from a savings point of view. It will be the same or more money than to pay for gas. That stinks! They sure are screwing with the EV car folks.

How did you reach that conclusion?. An EV is one of the easiest ways to load shift and take advantage of super off peak rates. SCE still offers an EV rate with a low off peak rate doesn't it?

[josefontao]

How did you reach that conclusion?. An EV is one of the easiest ways to load shift and take advantage of super off peak rates. SCE still offers an EV rate with a low off peak rate doesn't it?

Well, right now they still have a super off peak if you are grandfathered in. But there is no super off peak in the new TOU rates and these new rates will be shoved down our throats in a couple of years, forcefully. And probably the rates will be even higher than they are right now when the time comes.
Winter rates with the new TOU rates for off peak is 28 cents/kWh and summer rates will be 22 cents/kWh.

My car is a Fusion Energy. It takes about 7kWh to fully charge my car and that gets me 20 miles. So during the 8 winter months that would be $1.96 to charge the car every night. While on hybrid my car gets me just over 40mpg. So half a gallon would take me 20 miles and half a gallon in my area costs $1.60. So its definitely cheaper to use gas.

About break even during the 4 summer months.

[J.P.M.]

With the new TOU rates it makes no sense to have an EV or plug in hybrid car from a savings point of view. It will be the same or more money than to pay for gas. That stinks! They sure are screwing with the EV car folks.

Well, let's see. A common EV gets maybe 3 miles/kWh, maybe a bit more. Say a home charger is 90% efficient, and a super off peak T.O.U. rate is $0.20/kWh. If those #'s are reasonable and maybe even a bit conservative, it'll cost ($0.20/kWh)/((3miles/kWh)*(.090)) = $0.074/mile "fuel" cost to drive an EV. with no oil change or other ICE associated costs.

Now, lets compare that to an ICE that gets, say, 30 MPG and use Costco gas prices ($3.09 in my neighborhood today) which are usually the lowest or close to the lowest around. That would be ($3.09/gal)/(30 MPG) = $0.103/ mile "fuel" cost for an ICE powered vehicle that has decent fuel economy.

If you're kind, and you leave out oil changes and other ICE associated costs, at today's gas price, an ICE powered vehicle would need to get ($3.09/$0.074) = ~ 41.8 MPG before it would begin to be cost competitive with an EV that gets 3 miles/kWh. That 3 miles/kWh may itself be a bit conservative, at least in the mild So. CA endless summers near the coast.

So, drive something like a Prius ICE and your opinion may hold some water. Otherwise, run your own numbers, but you may find the numbers I used above are somewhat conservative, that is the fuel cost/mile is probably less than $0.074/mile just now.

However, to take a longer and more inclusive view, like PV economics, there is a computation that's needed to balance the likely higher initial costs for an EV against the likely lower operating costs for fuel (POCO off peak rate power) and likely lower maint. costs of an EV. It also may be necessary to set a "value" for the pleasure one derives from owning/driving an EV if that pleasure is greater than that derived from an alternative ICE powered vehicle, but that's a lot harder if not impossible to quantify.

In the end, it comes down to an economic comparison between paying more up front (for an EV), but less for operating it down the road, or less up front cost (for a conventionally powered vehicle) but higher operating and maint. costs down the road, and seeing which way you come out ahead economically down the road using the time value of money/cost analysis and adding that to the rest of the priorities in the vehicle decision making process.

[josefontao]

It will be 28cent/kwh. That's significantly more than 20 cents.

In regards to the higher costs of EV vehicles, I can't disagree. But if you negotiate the selling price and take advantage of all possible rebates you still come out ahead.
For example, my Fusion Energi has a msrp or $40K. But my monthly payment are $289. 36 month lease with $0 down. Sign and drive.
If you push the dealership you will get your way.

But take away the incentives/rebates and buying/leasing an ICE car is the way to go.

[Ampster]

.....
Winter rates with the new TOU rates for off peak is 28 cents/kWh and summer rates will be 22 cents/kWh.new rates will be shoved down our throats in a couple of years, forcefully. And probably the rates will be even higher than they are right now when the time comes.
.........

I am looking at the Energy Toolbase article that ButchDeal posted and I see a rate plan designed for EV users which has a winter super off peak rate of $0.12412 and a summer off peak rate of $0.12995. That rate is called Prime and has no additional adders if you go over baseline. Are we looking at the same schedules? I think an EV is economical at those rates. That is roughly what I am being charged off peak in PG&E territory and similar to what I pay in SCE territory for chargers I provide to my tenants at off peak times.
Are we looking at the same rates? Why wouldn't you want to be on the TOU-D Prime?

[josefontao]

According to SCE's website, PRIME will only be available until the end of April of this year.
Tou-d-a rates are significantly better than Tou-d-prime (at least for my usage pattern)

so do I switch now to prime and pay more or do I remain with my current plan until SCE forces me to switch to one of the crap Tou new rates? that's the question. Will i have until 2022 until they force me to switch or will they force me to change before that? I guess I should call them.

[Ampster]

According to SCE's website, PRIME will only be available until the end of April of this year.
Tou-d-a rates are significantly better than Tou-d-prime (at least for my usage pattern)

so do I switch now to prime and pay more or do I remain with my current plan until SCE forces me to switch to one of the crap Tou new rates? that's the question. Will i have until 2022 until they force me to switch or will they force me to change before that? I guess I should call them.

You know your usage better than I do.The only way I was able to answer that kind of question for myself was to model my consumption and the rates to see where the sweet spot was. I noticed they said prime was for people with storage so I suspect that there will still be some kind of cheap off peak rate for some time, One of the purposes of TOU rates was to get people to shift loads and another was to match rates to market costs .

I still enjoy low off peak rates on my commercial accounts, and I have no fears about them disappearing in PG&E territory. But then I have a battery system and don't have to pay those high peak rates.