Where's the rest of the cost?

[ButchDeal]

Big a** trailer actually, in the one company I saw at SPI claiming 3 installs in one day.

likely micros and railless installs and cutting corners like not recording optimizer layout.
We would get applications from lots of installers that work like this. They would say they only do micros, railless and only one PV module model. Everyone gets the same. We tried to work with a few of them and they were terrible. One did two installs yes but didn't follow the drawings at all, put modules on wrong roof faces, one put them on a north face instead of the south face. He tried to tell the customer that we were wrong about the design and he "fixed it". Turns out the south face was too tall for his ladder and he just didn't want to walk over the ridge.

The sad thing is the customer either didn't know about the issues or in the "north face" install case bought the installers line of crap. I caught all of them when I was setting up monitoring the next day and sent the installers out to really fix every install (including the north face). Boy they hate having to supply optimizer or micro layouts after the fact, but not as much as not getting paid.

The point is I believe the "didn't have many call backs right away" as many customers don't know how crappy the service they got was.
Now not all guys doing work like this are the same.

[jflorey2]

That would be one big a** truck

Big a** trailer actually, in the one company I saw at SPI claiming 3 installs in one day.

[motorcyclemikie]

That would be one big a** truck

Or small installations!

JF You are so right about the overhead of poor quality Equipment, particularly when it involves field repair and maintenance

[littleharbor]

.

2-3 installs a day with a single truck and have almost no callbacks.

That would be one big a** truck

[jflorey2]

if you think I am asking tough questions just wait till you see how tough these building contractors get to be now that it's mandatory for new home builds to include solar energy in California, they are in a very competitive business and do not make any money by giving it away on overpriced equipment

If you think buying cheap equipment saves you money, just wait until 10% of your workforce is out fixing the stuff that failed during the first really hot day.

There are already "cookie cutter" approaches to solar installs. Enphase inverters integrated into existing panels is one. Off the shelf string inverters (like SMA) with series generic panels is another. They are similar in price, and have been done so often that there's plenty of experience out there. As panel prices come down, labor (both initial install and maintenance) will be the factor that separates success from failure; the successful companies will be the ones that can do 2-3 installs a day with a single truck and have almost no callbacks.

[motorcyclemikie]

And of course you should think about your exit plan for selling those optimizers that work with 3-phase inverters. You're likely to find they don't work, so might as well plan for that up front.

Foo, I have planned for the demise of my PV harvesting venture. I would offer my new under warranty equipment at 50% of retail cost, why would anyone pay $2200 for a SE7600H inverter, when I would ship it to them for half price -- even less, i'll do $1000 to your door. This may come about, I, like others came looking to investigate the feasibility of setting up a PV system whether it is economically and viably practical. I saw the computer industry evolve the way the solar industry is evolving, the purist and engineering groups are being pushed aside by the used car salesman type of groups that reap fat profits off unsuspecting people that just want the product and subsequently they pay for it. this business is evolving very fast particularly since it is mandated on New home builds in California and will be very shortly in the rest of the country that is when the big boys will bring prices down to where they should be, if not the Chinese will come in and cut their legs off if they are not price competitive.

practically speaking I can see the pricing coming down a good 30% within the next year (I am bombarded with prices for new latest technology solar panels for 40 to 50 cents a watt!, how much were they 12 months ago even six months ago), if I wait a year I'll be paying my $100 a month electric bill but I will not have put out the five or six thousand dollars for the system.

This is the question I am asking myself right now at this rate is it financially feasible, it really isn't but I would like to have energy Independence and also see if I can improve my environment.
That is just me, being a engineer, my mind won't let me rest easily

[motorcyclemikie]

No worries. This is a good place to come to be less bewildered, but not a good place to come to get your misconceptions reinforced.

And I have never seen a SMA inverter with its Secure Power output wired to house wiring, and a battery put on its input side instead of a solar array. Might that work? Maybe. Why hasn't anyone done that? Because the downsides (potential fire, likely inverter failure, almost certain unhappiness) outweigh the positives (cheap way to get backup solar power.)

If someone wants to do that experiment - AND has the funding/knowledge/experience/facility/equipment to do it safely - then no worries. It would be interesting to see what happened. But it is absolutely not something that someone who wants to get into solar should try.

BTW the most likely outcome is not "disaster / everyone dies." The most likely outcome is that it won't work. But if you have the $$$, the equipment, the facilities, the knowledge and the experience to do the test and evaluate its effectiveness, go for it. Can you honestly say you have all those things?

JF, yeah you know if these didn't play together that would just be the start of it anyway, next you would have to find out why it didn't work and so forth and on and on! I have already assumed this to actually be a null point and a low priority, there are many other things that I feel I can beat a little bit of the price out of, I believe I'll have to let you know if I find this to be true. incidentally if you think I am asking tough questions just wait till you see how tough these building contractors get to be now that it's mandatory for new home builds to include solar energy in California, they are in a very competitive business and do not make any money by giving it away on overpriced equipment

[jflorey2]

I wholeheartedly disagree, bewildered is more of the term that I would use for these "secrets" I have discovered.

No worries. This is a good place to come to be less bewildered, but not a good place to come to get your misconceptions reinforced.

I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely, accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it. apparently every time it must have ended in disaster and everyone died, I don't know

And I have never seen a SMA inverter with its Secure Power output wired to house wiring, and a battery put on its input side instead of a solar array. Might that work? Maybe. Why hasn't anyone done that? Because the downsides (potential fire, likely inverter failure, almost certain unhappiness) outweigh the positives (cheap way to get backup solar power.)

If someone wants to do that experiment - AND has the funding/knowledge/experience/facility/equipment to do it safely - then no worries. It would be interesting to see what happened. But it is absolutely not something that someone who wants to get into solar should try.

BTW the most likely outcome is not "disaster / everyone dies." The most likely outcome is that it won't work. But if you have the $$$, the equipment, the facilities, the knowledge and the experience to do the test and evaluate its effectiveness, go for it. Can you honestly say you have all those things?

[bcroe]

I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely,
accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it.

I guess now with You Tu.., it is just expected that every possible error will be documented. Bruce Roe

[foo1bar]

I passed over the 3 panel configuration in favor of the "double" configuration because solaredge even put leads for 2 panels on the P800p in anticipation of me, and other logical reasons I'm sure.

The P800 is designed/intended for large 3phase power installations.
It's meant to be used with 16kW+ commercial installations.
In those type of situations two modules per optimizer makes a lot of sense.
I think in those situations the end customer is likely to be OK with monitoring at the pair-of-modules granularity and is willing to accept not having the per-module monitoring.

JF I don't have a problem with configuring for only 2 panels (modules), I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely, accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it. apparently every time it must have ended in disaster and everyone died, I don't know

The documents don't say it will work.
I have no reason to believe that will work since the optimizers and the inverter have to talk to each other and there's nothing from the manufacturer that says they'll speak the same language. (In fact their documentation actually says they don't work together.)
So if the documentation from the manufacturer says "don't do this, it's not supported", why spend money to see if it'll work?
But hey, it's your money - if you spend it this way let us know what you find out. From the documentation from Solaredge it looks like min number of optimizers in a string of P800p's is 13 - so that could be a problem for you as well.

Since you've changed your plans on the modules being hooked up to it, you might want to look at a P600/P650
That's also only intended for use with 3-phase inverters - but at least it isn't only intended for 16kW+ three phase.
And I think the P650 is more likely to be a good fit to the modules you're considering.
I still expect it won't work.
I'd encourage you to do some google searches to see if anyone has made the mistake of ordering P600 with single-phase inverter.
And of course you should think about your exit plan for selling those optimizers that work with 3-phase inverters. You're likely to find they don't work, so might as well plan for that up front.

[motorcyclemikie]

I get the feeling that you are feeling proud you have discovered a "secret" or something that will allow you to be more intelligent and frugal than anyone else. A lot of people go through that phase. Usually it's an expensive one.

I wholeheartedly disagree, bewildered is more of the term that I would use for these "secrets" I have discovered. I passed over the 3 panel configuration in favor of the "double" configuration because solaredge even put leads for 2 panels on the P800p in anticipation of me, and other logical reasons I'm sure.

JF I don't have a problem with configuring for only 2 panels (modules), I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely, accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it. apparently every time it must have ended in disaster and everyone died, I don't know

[foo1bar]

You know, without fanning the quiet embers I am certain that the P800 will pair with ANY solaredge inverter because solaredge documentation says it will. I am on a mission to find that out as that is the best Optimizer for my system design, I believe at this point.

Why do you think it's the best optimizer for your system design?

I thought you understood that trying to hook up 3 of the 250W modules to it in the configuration you proposed is going to mean you have about 2/3 of the production you'd otherwise get.

Have you determined if you need rapid shutdown?
Have you looked at using a plain string inverter instead of a solaredge system?

[jflorey2]

the $45 prices optimizer that I find are on eBay I have one of the p800 brand-new optimizers sitting here in front of me that I paid $45 for. why would I pay more why would anyone pay more for the same part . . .

Heck, you could pay even less than that for cheap Chinese microinverters; then you wouldn't need a central inverter, either.

But you get what you pay for.

I get the feeling that you are feeling proud you have discovered a "secret" or something that will allow you to be more intelligent and frugal than anyone else. A lot of people go through that phase. Usually it's an expensive one.

[ButchDeal]

Thanks for that link Butch, I got with wholesale solar and I'm having them give me a quote for the panels and the racking. They certainly seem like nice knowledgeable people, the kind you like to spend money with.

remember indOP is not compatible with SE7600H or the P800p but you will need the key to enable it:

https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_key_datasheet.pdf

I fail to see how IndOP will assist you in any way with connecting P800p to SE7600H as well but good luck, maybe consider taking out an life insurance policy before touching anything...

[motorcyclemikie]

Thanks for that link Butch, I got with wholesale solar and I'm having them give me a quote for the panels and the racking. They certainly seem like nice knowledgeable people, the kind you like to spend money with.