DIY Install in Florida. Need help with Engineering diagrams for Permitting

[Djole]

Yes I ended up installing 27 panels myself. I have a 8Kw system. Yes 10Kw is Insurance required.

Since you have this system for some time what would you recommend should i go with up to 10Kw or more. I spend on average 2100 Kwh per month

[TundraLu]

TundraLu I'm in Tampa FL by the airport and thinking of going solar. Initially i planed with a 16 Kw system but Teco seems to give people trouble with 1 million liability insurance for a system bigger than 10 Kw. Did you setup the 9 kw system?

Yes I ended up installing 27 panels myself. I have a 8Kw system. Yes 10Kw is Insurance required.

[Djole]

Ok so after researching a bit and figuring out what equipment to go with. I have decided on the following:

1 SolarEdge 7600HD-US Inverter
20 Panasonic HIT 325Watt Panels
20 SolarEdge P400 Optimizers
Iron Ridge rail and rack system for all panels.

I want to start out with 12 panels on the roof and work up to 20-24 in the future. I have access to a licensed Master Electrician in my county as he is a personal friend. I just need help getting Engineering diagram for the permitting process. Most places like Renvu and Wholesale Solar want you to buy the equipment form them. I have access to the equipment at a substantially reduced price since they sell in bulk quantity.



Can any DIY guys that have crossed this path point me in the right direction. I would rather pay someone that knows what they are doing to make the process much easier.


Thanks,

TundraLu I'm in Tampa FL by the airport and thinking of going solar. Initially i planed with a 16 Kw system but Teco seems to give people trouble with 1 million liability insurance for a system bigger than 10 Kw. Did you setup the 9 kw system?

[ButchDeal]

Since im under NEC 2014, it seems like I could avoid the rapid shutdown by also just mounting the inverter within 10 feet? Not ideal for the way I wanted my design, but I could make it work. I do need to go meet with someone at my permitting office, I was just trying to have as much understanding as possible first.

It is possible but the inverter would need to be accessable at that location.

[eyyopomps]

Midnight solar makes a complete system for rapid shutdown that is NEC 2014 compliant, with the addition of their "Bird house" control unit.

SMA has a rapid shutdown solution that will be as well with the addition of their RSC-1X-US-10 control unit.

There are others but I would suggest the midnite solar one as people will be most familiar with it and it has been around a while.

http://midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=542&productCatName=RAPID-SHUTDOWN-SYSTEM-NEC-690.12%20&productCat_ID=44&sortOrder=14&act=pc

Since im under NEC 2014, it seems like I could avoid the rapid shutdown by also just mounting the inverter within 10 feet? Not ideal for the way I wanted my design, but I could make it work. I do need to go meet with someone at my permitting office, I was just trying to have as much understanding as possible first.

[Batikikik]

Hello Tundra,
We have used <link removed> This tool helps you to design the system and get quotes but if you want to do yourself they provide you with Enginering package + permit for $350. I will highly suggest to use them

Moderator note: Posting links in your first post looks like advertising. No ads please. If that is not what you were doing, let us know and we will let you re-post the link.

[ButchDeal]

Hey Butch, I got some feedback from solardesigntools about my system, the inverter I have purchased does have positive grounding capabilities because I guess thats what the sunpower panels I bought use..(man I really got ahead of myself by buying these panels before doing all the research) also seems theyre a lot older than I thought they were.. My county uses NEC 2014, so I think I can use the independent system you mentioned. Do you know where I would purchase this system? I went ahead and reached out to someone named Doug at https://www.solarschematics.com/ to see if he can make my plans.


To design an NEC compliant system with this module, you may need to jump through many hoops. For the rapid shutdown device, I would suggest contacting Midnite solar and getting a custom combiner with relays and a ground bar in it and then hiring an experienced designer to draw up the SLD so it is compliant."

Midnight solar makes a complete system for rapid shutdown that is NEC 2014 compliant, with the addition of their "Bird house" control unit.

SMA has a rapid shutdown solution that will be as well with the addition of their RSC-1X-US-10 control unit.

There are others but I would suggest the midnite solar one as people will be most familiar with it and it has been around a while.

http://midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=542&productCatName=RAPID-SHUTDOWN-SYSTEM-NEC-690.12%20&productCat_ID=44&sortOrder=14&act=pc

[eyyopomps]

well sort of. With NEC2017 you need PV module level rapid shutdown
with NEC 2014 you need panel level ( a Panel is a group of PV modules in a single contiguous plane).



A complete rapid shutdown system that is works completely independently of the inverter with its own triggering equipment. this may not be available if you need NEC 2017.



Your neighbor should know if your state has moved to following NEC 2017 or NEC 2014. you can also look it up on a few sites.
https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoptio...-adoption-maps

Hey Butch, I got some feedback from solardesigntools about my system, the inverter I have purchased does have positive grounding capabilities because I guess thats what the sunpower panels I bought use..(man I really got ahead of myself by buying these panels before doing all the research) also seems theyre a lot older than I thought they were.. My county uses NEC 2014, so I think I can use the independent system you mentioned. Do you know where I would purchase this system? I went ahead and reached out to someone named Doug at https://www.solarschematics.com/ to see if he can make my plans.

"Hi James,
I'm investigating why a single-line diagram could not be created for your system. The short reason is that these modules are so old that it is not possible to create a system with them that will comply with current electrical and fire codes. Therefore, the system just aborts the creation of an electrical diagram. (But it should have provided you with a more helpful note in the instructions about this)

This design includes a very (very) old Sunpower module (these are 10 years old or older). The old Sunpower modules were positive-grounded and could only be used with inverters that could be configured for positive-grounded DC arrays. At that time, the inverters were all negative grounded. Since these modules were very popular back in the day, inverter companies made it possible to configure some of their models for positive-ground in order to be compatible with the Sunpower modules. But these modules fell out of favor after a few years and Sunpower began manufacturing modules that did not require positive-grounded DC arrays. As a result, inverter companies stopped producing inverters that could be configured for positive-grounded systems. Then a few years later, tranformerless inverters (ungrounded) became popular and took over the market.

With the release of NEC 2014, systems with string inverters were required to provide something called "Rapid Shutdown". This meant that string inverter systems needed to include a new component that allow fire fighters to shut power off at the array within fractions of a second from an initiator located near the point of connection. Companies scrambled to produce this device before this requirement came into effect. Since the only residential inverters on the market at this time were transformerless inverters, all of the rapid shutdown devices were designed to work with ungrounded arrays. As a result, there are no rapid shutdown devices on the market that will work with positive-grounded arrays. Hence, our system is unable to create an NEC-compliant system for this module.

Other issues are that current fire codes require UL1703 compliance to ensure that the solar array does not reduce the fire rating of the roof it is installed on. These modules are not certified to this new standard. Additionally, when using any modern racking system, the preferred equipment grounding method (which is different then positive-grounded, negative-grounded, and ungrounded arrays) is to bond the module frames to the rails bonding clamps. But to use these the racking system needs to be certified to be UL2703 compliant when used with that specific module. These modules have not been tested with any racking system for UL2703 Grounding and Bonding compliance.

To design an NEC compliant system with this module, you may need to jump through many hoops. For the rapid shutdown device, I would suggest contacting Midnite solar and getting a custom combiner with relays and a ground bar in it and then hiring an experienced designer to draw up the SLD so it is compliant."

[ButchDeal]

Isn't the only difference the 10' vs 1' mounting change?

well sort of. With NEC2017 you need PV module level rapid shutdown
with NEC 2014 you need panel level ( a Panel is a group of PV modules in a single contiguous plane).

What would you mean by independent system?

A complete rapid shutdown system that is works completely independently of the inverter with its own triggering equipment. this may not be available if you need NEC 2017.

Sorry for all the questions but specs and compatibility seem difficult to find online unfortunately. We really most of the details to creating a system are tough to uncover.. My county permitting process is also very vague. would be helpful if I knew someone that was familiar, my neighbor is a master electrician but doesnt really know anything about PV.

Your neighbor should know if your state has moved to following NEC 2017 or NEC 2014. you can also look it up on a few sites.

https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps

[eyyopomps]

You will need to determine which rapid shutdown code you need to follow NEC 2014 or NEC 2017
and no not all equipment is compatible. you will need to contact your inverter manufacturer to see or have a completely independent system

Isn't the only difference the 10' vs 1' mounting change? What would you mean by independent system? Sorry for all the questions but specs and compatibility seem difficult to find online unfortunately. We really most of the details to creating a system are tough to uncover.. My county permitting process is also very vague. would be helpful if I knew someone that was familiar, my neighbor is a master electrician but doesnt really know anything about PV.

[ButchDeal]

In my solar design tool, it made me realize I may have missed a piece of my plan/ materials list. The rapid shut down device. Are these components pretty universal? My array is going to 2 6 panel strings, and my inverter is going to be on the other side of my house. (so way further than 10 feet) Do I just need one of these devices where all wires series'd together? are these devices compatable with all string inverters? looks like theyre relatively cheap on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-Soliv....c100010.m2109

You will need to determine which rapid shutdown code you need to follow NEC 2014 or NEC 2017
and no not all equipment is compatible. you will need to contact your inverter manufacturer to see or have a completely independent system

[eyyopomps]

In my solar design tool, it made me realize I may have missed a piece of my plan/ materials list. The rapid shut down device. Are these components pretty universal? My array is going to 2 6 panel strings, and my inverter is going to be on the other side of my house. (so way further than 10 feet) Do I just need one of these devices where all wires series'd together? are these devices compatable with all string inverters? looks like theyre relatively cheap on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-Soliv....c100010.m2109

[J.P.M.]

Right, well thanks for the info, i'll worry about the tax credits once I get this baby in operation!

Was wondering if you could give me any other pointers/ advice. I was looking at the iron ridge system, cause i'm also in hurricane county. I'm not really entire sure which mount id use for this system, I have a corrugated metal roof, so I dont think I need flashing and I cant use the clamp mount system.
My house is brand new with a hip style roof, so I can everything mounted south and the trusses should be adequate for the weight.

For what, if any, value the info may have, you are most welcome.

Other than rereading my 11/17/2017 post to this thread, I'd only further suggest you see what your local AHJ may want or will accept and so avoid any surprises, and then consider Butch's suggestions, and go from there.

I'd also consider a look at ASCE 7-13, etc. for a taste of what a good wind design/review may require.

[eyyopomps]

S5! has several mounts that will work with most metal roofs. https://www.s-5.com/products/clamps-brackets/
Ironridge has an online site designer that will help you get it set up. just use the L-Foot option since you will add the S5! mounts under the L bracket and not the ironridge flashfoot.

Thank you!

[ButchDeal]

I was looking at the iron ridge system, cause i'm also in hurricane county. I'm not really entire sure which mount id use for this system, I have a corrugated metal roof, so I dont think I need flashing and I cant use the clamp mount system.
My house is brand new with a hip style roof, so I can everything mounted south and the trusses should be adequate for the weight.

S5! has several mounts that will work with most metal roofs. https://www.s-5.com/products/clamps-brackets/
Ironridge has an online site designer that will help you get it set up. just use the L-Foot option since you will add the S5! mounts under the L bracket and not the ironridge flashfoot.