My Solaredge system dead. How to figure if it's an optimizer or inverter that's bad?

[sensij]

When I rebooted system this morning all 22 optimizers came up as P_OK, as opposed to before reboot when one was non-reporting. If all 22 optimizers are P_OK is there any purpose to re-pairing? I have direct access to the inverter; that's not a problem, and I can surely learn how to re-pair if instructions are in an install guide. But if all 22 are on P_OK is there any purpose to it?

I have not looked at temperature data. It does not seem something you can chart on in the monitoring portal. I was told these things are intended to be outside in the elements and it would not be a problem. It is mounted on east wall, so is out of direct sun by early afternoon.

Re-pairing won't hurt, but as long as all optimizers continue to report in happily, it might not be necessary. The high DC voltage - no AC power thing could possibly be related though, so it would still be on the list of things to try if re-seating the connections doesn't get you all the way there.

Temperature data is accessible via the API, if you don't want to join and auto-upload it via PVOutput. The request you put into your browser is this, preceeded by https://

monitoringapi.solaredge.com/equipment/<site ID>/<inverter serial number>data?api_key=<your API key>&startTime=2015-05-5 11:00:00&endTime=2015-05-05 13:00:00

If your installer hasn't given you an API key, you can request one (they are free). The inverter is labeled with the serial number if you can't get it any other way, and the site ID is on your monitoring portal. You can look at a week's worth of data at once this way.

[FFE]

So... maybe the installer did something different with your install. They setup your inverter to limit the output. This way they could use a 30 amp circuit breaker and smaller wire to stay under 24 amps. I have seen an install like this and have heard of another. This might be why you clip at 5904 watts (24 amps x 246 volts). Your install might not be dangerous and illegal as others posted, just not optimal.

[sensij]

So... maybe the installer did something different with your install. They setup your inverter to limit the output. This way they could use a 30 amp circuit breaker and smaller wire to stay under 24 amps. I have seen an install like this and have heard of another. This might be why you clip at 5904 watts (24 amps x 246 volts). Your install might not be dangerous and illegal as others posted, just not optimal.

You don't get to adjust the wiring based on a software limit. It doesn't matter whether you put 3 kW or 8 kW of panels on the 6000 W inverter. Code cares about what the inverter is rated to continuously produce, and the wiring must be compliant with that to be "legal".

I agree that "code compliant" and "safe" are not always synonymous. However, when coupled with performance problems and other apparent installation shortcuts, it is hard to give the installer the benefit of the doubt.

[FFE]

I am not disagreeing with you sensij. Maybe someone with excellent knowledge of the code might have found a loophole. Or maybe they are exploiting less then knowledgeable inspectors and homeowners and figure it is safe. Aren't all inverters software limited? Otherwise how can an inverter rated for 16 amps can be connected to a 20 amp breaker with 5000 watts DC of panels? An SE-6000 can be programmed to limit itself to 24 amps AC.

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

[sensij]

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

Yeah, distinguishing "software" from "firmware" means different things to different people. I didn't mean to suggest that there was a hardware limit, just that code doesn't allow overcurrent protection and wire size to be selected based on the user-settable output limit. Whether or not any particular AHJ looks close enough at the plans to catch it, or takes issue with what actually gets installed if it doesn't match the plans, is where the real world intrudes on my safe design space.

[SunEagle]

I am not disagreeing with you sensij. Maybe someone with excellent knowledge of the code might have found a loophole. Or maybe they are exploiting less then knowledgeable inspectors and homeowners and figure it is safe. Aren't all inverters software limited? Otherwise how can an inverter rated for 16 amps can be connected to a 20 amp breaker with 5000 watts DC of panels? An SE-6000 can be programmed to limit itself to 24 amps AC.

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

The maximum amp output of an inverter is based on it's wattage and voltage rating which determines the circuit breaker size based on the NEC and AHJ requirements.

Sure you can limit the amount of current with an another smaller over current device on the output but that does not allow you to reduce the size of the tie in breaker at the panel.

[ButchDeal]

I am not disagreeing with you sensij. Maybe someone with excellent knowledge of the code might have found a loophole. Or maybe they are exploiting less then knowledgeable inspectors and homeowners and figure it is safe. Aren't all inverters software limited? Otherwise how can an inverter rated for 16 amps can be connected to a 20 amp breaker with 5000 watts DC of panels? An SE-6000 can be programmed to limit itself to 24 amps AC.

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

It only matters what the inverter is rated for in the plack on he side of it. Wether it is accomplished with software or hardware means nothing.
that this install passed inspection only shows that there are poor inspectors around.

Ghe amount of dc connected to the inverter is irrelivent. In fact it would be the same if it had zero D.C. Connected to it.

[kny]

So... maybe the installer did something different with your install. They setup your inverter to limit the output. This way they could use a 30 amp circuit breaker and smaller wire to stay under 24 amps. I have seen an install like this and have heard of another. This might be why you clip at 5904 watts (24 amps x 246 volts). Your install might not be dangerous and illegal as others posted, just not optimal.

The installer seems to specialize in installs with Canadian Solar panels and Enphase microinverters. So, I'm guessing Sunpower 327 with SolarEdge power optimizers and string inverter was out of their wheelhouse despite having no hesitation in designing and installing this system when I proposed it. Not that this excuses it, but the install crew probably just went up there and did what they do day in and day out, and I'm guessing Enphase micro-inverters don't need grounding or don't have special washers to ground to the rails. How the electrician and the inspector let it by, though, I do not know.

The 10 AWG wire and 30amp breaker has me irritated, but as sensij noted, safe and code compliant are not always synonymous. While I wish I had 8 AWG and a 40amp breaker, the system as is will never put out more than 25 amps, which over 60' the 10AWG wire can handle. I'm not losing sleep over this wiring buried in my walls. The poor connection at the breaker was surely a bigger issue than the 10 AWG wire. I, however, now have now option to add more panels and upgrade to a 7600 inverter, which I was considering. That's out.

The lack of grounding of the optimizers, on the other hand, has me legitimately pissed off. There is no excuse for it. Pages 12/13 of the PO install guide make very clear the two means of grounding the POs, and neither were done. That is unacceptable. This did not save the install company time or money. The star washers come with the POs; they simply didn't know what they were for and didn't use them and threw them away.

When the inevitable happens and the install company comes out to swap out a new inverter and/or optimizer(s) I want to have 22 star washers to hand to them and demand they install. Does anyone know whether any old star washer with teeth that I can pick up at HD or Lowes will do? Is there anything special to these piercing star washers that come with SolarEdge power optimizers?

[sensij]

I just looked more closely at the pictures in the first post. I hope the OP's inverter is displaying temperature in deg F!

[sensij]

When the inevitable happens and the install company comes out to swap out a new inverter and/or optimizer(s) I want to have 22 star washers to hand to them and demand they install. Does anyone know whether any old star washer with teeth that I can pick up at HD or Lowes will do? Is there anything special to these piercing star washers that come with SolarEdge power optimizers?

I think I still have one from my current install, I'll take a picture. Bigger teeth than I'm used to buying at Home Depot, but I haven't looked for this in particular.

FWIW, putting on the washers is a pain. If it is Iron ridge rail, or something like it, the mounting T-bolts are pre-threaded with the nut, and if the star washer isn't used, they can drop right in and be tightened. Adding the star washer means unthreading the nut past some thread locker, then rethreading the nut. Doubles the time to mount the optimizer... Not much in the grand scheme, but in the moment, I can understand why they would be tempting to skip.

[sensij]

Here is a (blurry) picture of the extra star washer I had from my ongoing installation. I can get measurements and a better picture of needed.
star washer.jpg



I'm surprised you can tell whether the washers are installed or not... on my system, the optimizers are far enough under the panels that detecting whether there is a washer between the optimizer and rail is a challenge.

Even if the washers were skipped, I'm not sure i'd make an installer uninstall the array just to go back and add them. The ground washers don't do anything for the function of the optimizer or inverter, they are just there for safety so that if there is a fault in the optimizer that causes a DC line to short to ground, there is a path back to the source to trip the overcurrent device. Having the exposed metal surfaces on the optimizer (and everywhere else on the array) at ground potential reduces the risk of shock in that fault condition, as well. If the star washer is left out, there probably is still enough contact between the optimizer and rail to "ground" it, but it may just not be good enough contact in all environments to meet UL, driving the need for the washer.

[ButchDeal]

The lack of grounding of the optimizers, on the other hand, has me legitimately pissed off. There is no excuse for it. Pages 12/13 of the PO install guide make very clear the two means of grounding the POs, and neither were done. That is unacceptable. This did not save the install company time or money. The star washers come with the POs; they simply didn't know what they were for and didn't use them and threw them away.

When the inevitable happens and the install company comes out to swap out a new inverter and/or optimizer(s) I want to have 22 star washers to hand to them and demand they install. Does anyone know whether any old star washer with teeth that I can pick up at HD or Lowes will do? Is there anything special to these piercing star washers that come with SolarEdge power optimizers?

You should get the washers from the racking company. They are part of the rail grounding system. Iron ridge has kits for micro inverter installation that comes with two in each kit.
if the rails are ironridge and they used the ironridge micro inverter mounting kits then the star washers are not needed as the newer kits have a washer with sharp points to do the same thing.

http://files.ironridge.com/pitched-roof-mounting/resources/brochures/IronRidge_Flush_Mount_Installation_Manual.pdf

BTW micro inverters need to be grounded the same as the optimizers.

[ButchDeal]

If the star washer is left out, there probably is still enough contact between the optimizer and rail to "ground" it, but it may just not be good enough contact in all environments to meet UL, driving the need for the washer.

that depends on the rails and corrosion. Black rails would be unlikely to have any ground without the washer.

[sensij]

You should get the washers from the racking company. They are part of the rail grounding system. Iron ridge has kits for micro inverter installation that comes with two in each kit.
if the rails are ironridge and they used the ironridge micro inverter mounting kits then the star washers are not needed as the newer kits have a washer with sharp points to do the same thing.
http://files.ironridge.com/pitched-r...ion_Manual.pdf

BTW micro inverters need to be grounded the same as the optimizers.

The MI-BHW microinverter grounding kit, which is the kit you linked, does not include a washer with sharp points. The bolt head has small ridges to grab the optimizer or micro-inverter, and the T has ridges that would grab the slot in the rail. I wasn't sure if that alone would be enough to provide ground, so I sandwiched the star washer that SolarEdge provides as well, as shown in SolarEdge's application note. It would be nice if SolarEdge would update their note to include the XR10/XR100/XR1000 rails and the newest mounting hardware, which would really confirm that the star washer is not needed for that combination.

I'll check for continuity on my black rails without the star washer, relying on just the features of the MI-BHW kit. Basically, if what you are saying is right, if the OP's installer used the right hardware, the stars may not even be needed and the installation may be OK in this respect.

[kny]

Can I assume SLD-P300 PO model numbers means P-300 optimizers? Because that's what I've got despite an invoice showing P400s.

I'm now going from mildly pissed off to severely pissed off. I've got Sunpower E-327 panels and they should not be mated with P300s.