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**mpkelley20** · 06-29-2016, 02:19 PM

If my math is correct the cost of both systems is about the same at $4.20 per watt (4.28 for sungevity) . While that pricing may be Ok for the Sunpower panels, I am pretty sure the LG panels quote a bit rich. Especially with you being in California where I believe prices are much less, like closer to $3 per watt. Maybe I am wrong but I would call a few more installers for quotes.

And performance guarantees.....worth absolutely nothing. What is the production they are guaranteeing? Half the expected?

**sunnyguy** · 06-29-2016, 02:40 PM

For a 3kw system it may be higher than $3/w but shouldn't be that much higher unless there are panel upgrades, structural issues, or roofing services.

**jgd108** · 06-29-2016, 03:14 PM

Thanks guys, wow just joined the forum and I'm floored by responsiveness!
I lost my first draft by closing the tab, but let me clarify it.

I reached out to the main 4, and SolarCity wanted a bill before talking to me so no go (I heard they are the most expensive, but somehow have the biggest footprint .. maybe for their PPA?).
For SunPower they said my roof space on the South was too small so that did not go too far, but their installer Semper Solaris seemed OK with the roof.
SunRun spent 3 hours all in all to educate me which was awesome, but wanted 16 panels on the North to match my usage, coming off at $28k system.
I realized I didn't want North facing panels.
Anyways, I'm waiting on tomorrow's inspections to see the actual deal (how many panels fit on the South side, any issues with the roof and orientation).

I did make a couple online accounts on quoting systems (ie Energy Sage), and did a few more calls but at some point it gets time consuming!!

mpkelley20, the performance guarantees are year 1 95% of their 4,117 kw estimated (which seems low based on my roof, azimuth, daily average per m2, etc.)

I'm not sure how different it is versus SunPower's 25 year warranty which my installer said they will fix any issues the next business day..

I'm kinda sold on the SunPower panels because of W and efficiency and that they are using SolarEdge by default now (have tiny bit of shade, can trim the palm tree if needed)

**mpkelley20** · 06-29-2016, 03:47 PM

Lots of opinions on Sunpower on this forum. Most say they are not worth it unless you are space constrained. But in your case, the pricing is actually better per watt which is a bit insane. If these are your best 2 offers you get, I'd go sunpower.

Did you run PVWatts to see what your estimated output would be? At least have that as a comparison to the stated "guarantees" that have been given to you. Usually those guarantees are way below the expected output so they are really only good during a year where it rains all the time!

Good luck! Do some reading on here and you'll learn a ton!

**jgd108** · 06-29-2016, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by mpkelley20

Lots of opinions on Sunpower on this forum. Most say they are not worth it unless you are space constrained. But in your case, the pricing is actually better per watt which is a bit insane. If these are your best 2 offers you get, I'd go sunpower.

Did you run PVWatts to see what your estimated output would be? At least have that as a comparison to the stated "guarantees" that have been given to you. Usually those guarantees are way below the expected output so they are really only good during a year where it rains all the time!

Good luck! Do some reading on here and you'll learn a ton!

Thanks ! Yes if you check price per W it is the exact same even after their 2k rebate for Sungevity. Their free car charger would be shaving off another 2k but that's OK.
You gave me an idea to do a few more quotes, I'm reaching out to the top 3 installers on Yelp that serve my area and checking what they can do. Instead of just checking the main 4 companies.

I am reading that forum and just registered today, great stuff!

I did run the PVWatts and found a nearby house. My math is pretty solid, just the azimuth is not always taken into consideration for most calculators and that affects around <4% based on what I read for my 152 degrees.

My own numbers for the SunPower are very close to what they are estimating. They are saying 5632 kW/h and I'm coming up to just under 6k kW/h for the year.
I agree, the guaranteed numbers for Sungevity are super low. You could have 2 panels that are not working (jk).

One annoyance is they all want some form of contract and sometime deposit ($500 for sungevity) before coming out. Hope I can cancel them as easily as they say. But using that to put them one against another to get the best price once I make up my mind.

**J.P.M.** · 06-29-2016, 11:24 PM

First, before anything else, figure out how much electricity you use in a year by month and how you are charged for it as well as changes taking place in the way you are billed. I know a real PITA - life's a bitch sometimes. After that, determine how much of that load you want to offset with solar. Usually a 100% offset is not the most cost effective option, but your choice. I'd only suggest not getting stampeded or scared into oversizing.

Then, download and read "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies." An older version is free on the net. a new ed. runs ~~ $25. You're considering spending a lot of money. You need an education fix.

After that, and as suggested, get familiar w/ PVWatts - read the help/info screens first. After a few runs, you'll probably zero in on a size that meets your goals as set/determined above.

Next, separate all the frills/extras from the Sungevity quote. Compare apples/apples. All that extra stuff making accurate comparisons impossible.

Then, get more quotes. As noted, paying more than $3.25-$3.50 is nuts.

Most any system w/quality equipment, in the same location, orientation and service, professionally installed, will produce about equal annual output per installed kW. The going rate for that is as noted above - ~ $3.25 - $3.50/Watt before tax credits. Sunpower's great stuff, but not worth the price premium. The warranty and lower annual degradation are not worth the price premium. See prior threads for discussions. Solar PV is an appliance, like a water heater or a dishwasher, not a lifestyle.

Review the quotes you get and take your best shot, keeping in mind that the cheapest system in terms of $$/Watt may not be the most cost effective or the best deal. Think long term, and think quality of installer. A (slight ?) premium, fairly negotiated is probably worth it.

Get your roof inspected/serviced as necessary. Solar will last a long time on your roof. Give what's under it the highest possible probability of lasting as long. Chasing/Fixing leaks under an array is costly and problematic. Consider roof maint. to be cheap insurance.

After you read the book, come back and ask questions here as necessary.

**huge** · 06-30-2016, 09:39 AM

I agree with the above. My highest Sunpower quote was $4/w. In my area, a little North from you, people have been getting systems for under $3/w recently. I would definitely keep looking as most of these companies make lots of money from lack of knowledge. I almost made the same mistake as you, but thanks to all the feedback here, I'm getting a system for under $3/w and coincidentally has the highest yelp reviews. I have just a little more space than you on the roof, but I think you can do better. At the same time, it's only a matter of a couple thousand difference, which isn't much in the grand scheme of things. I would hold off until you're sure instead of rushing into it, especially if you're not even sure what your usage is

**J.P.M.** · 06-30-2016, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by jgd108

... But using that to put them one against another to get the best price once I make up my mind.

I'd suggest you not fall for the price matching ruse. You'll get a better price if you keep competing vendors price and other information to yourself. First of all, it shows you've got some class. Or, even if you have no class, think like the vendor. If they know where they need to be on price they'll go no lower than they need - like $0.01/Watt. If they are not sure where they need to be, you may wind up with a lower quote due to their uncertainty. Or, they may just drop their pants for the work, in which case, the probability of job quality suffering in ways you'll never know until a problem surfaces may well increase.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

**jgd108** · 07-01-2016, 02:30 AM

Thanks. Just had my first on-site visit from the Sungevity preferred installer. It was actually very interesting, and was able to ask 100 questions to a live person who's looking, walking on, and under my roof for the first time (solar wise). I just bought the house 3 weeks ago so completely agree not to rush a 20y purchase, and get real-world usage beyond a few hot days usage.
I'm fairly confident with my conservative 600kW/h avg per month, speaking to my neighbors and the 20 solar installers.

I've been researching a lot and the installer was impressed by my questions. The installer could potentially be in a conflict of interest with Sungevity, and admitted he could do the whole system for 3.8 cents a W versus 4.2 from Sungevity, and put 4 extra panels (14 vs 10) in groups of 2 which Sungevity wouldn't do. He also spoke highly of using Enphase inverter since I might end up with 4 (!) different placements of panels (different tilts, azimuth, etc) and that it could be made in a way (sized up) to accommodate more panels later on the North side if desired. He said he would be using Hyundai "commercial grade" panels around 345W (I asked him for the specs sheet) which makes about 4.8 DC KW which is much higher than the 3 DC KW from Sungevity. I'm taking all this with a grain of salt since he can contact me only after I cancel with Sungevity if I decide to do so (and pay cash of course)!

I've received a few more quotes and nothing below $4 per W. Where / how do you get it below that installed?
I am not giving any prices from vendor to vendor, just saying I'm shopping around obviously.
If my panels will anyway miss the August / Sept timeframe for getting activated I might wait till March, get better panels for the same price ? Seems to be getting toward 365W or more.
One concern I have which makes hard comparing systems is the actual amount of KW/h made in a year.
The efficiency of panels from my calculations shows a substantial difference between 18% and 21% efficiencies for same wattage panels.
Also inverters (string vs micro) etc also add up quite a bit, and then obviously placement of said panels.
How can you use the watt price and not the kw/h produced benchmark? Because the latter is really hard to measure accurately?

Full disclaimer, I'm an engineer :P

**huge** · 07-01-2016, 05:18 AM

Based on your questions, I don't think you will be happy with enphase 280w inverter coupled with a 345w panel

As far as price, just get some quotes from the companies that people have used here to get it below $3/w

**ButchDeal** · 07-01-2016, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by jgd108

One concern I have which makes hard comparing systems is the actual amount of KW/h made in a year.
The efficiency of panels from my calculations shows a substantial difference between 18% and 21% efficiencies for same wattage panels.
Also inverters (string vs micro) etc also add up quite a bit, and then obviously placement of said panels.
How can you use the watt price and not the kw/h produced benchmark? Because the latter is really hard to measure accurately?

Full disclaimer, I'm an engineer :P

ignore the NUMBER of modules (panels) and concentrate on the total wattage and $/w costs. Also take with a huge grain of salt the calculated kw/h per year from installers. Do your own calculations if you want to know.
Module efficiency just relates to the size, a 21% efficient module is smaller than an 18% module at the same wattage. Or conversely (and more commonly) a 21% efficient module puts out more watts than an 18% efficient module at roughly the same size, but of course costs considerably more per watt as well.

The efficiency has nothing to do with performance. In other words if you install 5kw using 21% efficient or 18% efficient modules, it will produce the same.

**J.P.M.** · 07-01-2016, 09:33 AM

OP: Read the book and get your own sizing estimates w/PVWatts.

What type of engineering do you practice ?

**ktran1** · 07-01-2016, 01:47 PM

For the sungevity, using LG300, it should be 1000$/panel your cost should be 10000$. I got quote for 22 panels is 22500$, in san jose

**jgd108** · 07-02-2016, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by huge

Based on your questions, I don't think you will be happy with enphase 280w inverter coupled with a 345w panel

As far as price, just get some quotes from the companies that people have used here to get it below $3/w

Thanks, I checked the specs and it says : "Commonly used module pairings: 235 W - 365 W"
He confirmed with me today that they are the 350W panels that are coming out shortly by sending the spec sheet (just found it now):

Error 404: Not Found

http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/fileuploader/download/download/?d=0&file=custom%2Fupload%2FTI-Series_Datasheet_EN-new.pdf

I have to research more Enphase, seems different than the SolarEdge and other inverters out there.

He's coming off at 3.8/W and nobody comes close. Not sure where people get quotes at 3/W seriously.

ktran1, was the quote from sungevity itself or an installer using the LG300?

ButchDeal, thanks that was great info which makes life easier. the hyundai panels are indeed 22% longer which probably makes up for their lower efficiency than the sunpower panels.

Thanks guys! great info on those forums love it!

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