Grid-Tie without netmetering

[organic farmer]

If your system is done correctly with permits and inspections, it shouldn't cost much more do to net metering and would have considerably less battery expense.

The only possible time that you need a permit, or to hire an inspector, is when you are net-metering.

In the majority of this state, some home designs may need a permit, some homes do not need a permit. No home needs an inspector.

You do not need it for off-grid solar or wind systems [unless the wind tower is taller than a certain threshold. One of our neighbors has this wind mill tower that has lights on it, and he needed to get a permit ]

For net-metering you need the permits, and the Poco inspections, and the state inspections, and you need the state certified installers [there are only a few and each of arseholes is a system dealer]. You pay out the woozoo to hire one of those guys.

I got quotes from two installers before I put in my system. One told me that he has never charged less than $100k for any off-grid system, he only deals with out-of-state tourists building multi-million dollar vacation homes.

[ButchDeal]

Hold on a second.

Our Poco does not pay money for power put onto the grid. If you net-meter you are billed for the taxes on the power you generate, and you are billed for the transmission fees for the power that you generate.

So that is NOT net metering.
if you net meter you are not billed for the taxes on the power you generate. You trade kwh, not money, thus no taxes on it.
And you do not have transmission fees. Net metering should almost NEVER go to transmission lines, a few distribution lines but not transmission lines.
So you don't have net metering as an option. I don't see how a neighbor could possibly have a lease then.

Plus as a completely separate issue, you also pay the lease fees.

Not if you purchase or get a loan. you specifically stated his overall costs...
a Lease would be the most expensive way to go.

Our neighbor who net-meters pay a lease that is equal to their previous average Poco bills, and they also pay a Poco bill. Every month they are paying out more for electricity than they were paying before.

Right most of that extra money is due to the LEASE!! but you already stated that the Poco doesn't have net metering.

Also as a completely separate issue, the total expense for their system is more than for any of the off-grid systems in our town [not talking finance or lease fees].

OK OK OK, first, what is the size of the neighbor that leases system? is it bimodal?
what is the size of the off grid systems. you already talked about the ones neighbor that has been off grid for decades and his system is smaller than the one in my trailer. So yes a tiny little 500w system is cheaper than a legally installed and permitted system including financing package that is I don't know what size because you haven't stated but probably over 4kw as leases are rarely under 4kw.
Just like a go cart is cheaper than a leased ferrari .

The little 12V system I put on my travel trailer is much much cheaper than the 3kw bimodal Outback power system I put in my house. My outback system does generates a hell of a lot more power. I can live in my travel trailer when we dry camp, sure but we also use a hell of a lot less power in it.

[Engineer]

You trade kwh, not money, thus no taxes on it.

Technically in Ca with PGE you do trade dollars as you buy and sell at the then current rate. So I generate at peak and get over twice what its worth when I use it off peak. And yes, if after a year I'm a net generator I do get a check at market rates, about 4 cents/kWh. If that happens presumably its taxable.

[ButchDeal]

in PGE you trade kwh at a similar rate to avoid any commerce. There is still no money transaction.

The end of year true up is taxable and should be self reported.

[Engineer]

No I agree there is no money transaction, the system is designed for self consumption. However money, or rates at least do come into play with TOU is my point. They also do the accounting on a dollar basis not kWh. To my understanding at least in reading all the utility documentation and examples on the net, I haven't seen the bills yet.

[organic farmer]

If your system is done correctly with permits and inspections, it shouldn't cost much more do to net metering and would have considerably less battery expense.

Another thought, when you do file a permit to build a house in our town. If you were to insist on having an inspector of some sort. That inspector would need to come up from the state capital, to inspect whatever you drug him out to look at. I have been told many stories about home builders doing that. It costs a lot extra.

My house permit came with a certificate of 'completion and self-inspection' that I signed when I was done building. But that was before I had lived here long enough to understand that I did not need the permit to begin with.

Installers will only install equipment that they sell. Nothing they sell is as low priced as what you can buy online and get shipped. Buy on-line and on-sale. You will pay half of what any installer charges.

[ButchDeal]

The only possible time that you need a permit, or to hire an inspector, is when you are net-metering.

Not true for most people and likely not for you either. Also often the inspection is covered in the permit fee.

In the majority of this state, some home designs may need a permit, some homes do not need a permit. No home needs an inspector.

So you live in an area where you can connect a home to the grid without any permits and inspections...

You do not need it for off-grid solar or wind systems [unless the wind tower is taller than a certain threshold. One of our neighbors has this wind mill tower that has lights on it, and he needed to get a permit ]

For net-metering you need the permits, and the Poco inspections, and the state inspections, and you need the state certified installers [there are only a few and each of arseholes is a system dealer]. You pay out the woozoo to hire one of those guys.

I got quotes from two installers before I put in my system. One told me that he has never charged less than $100k for any off-grid system, he only deals with out-of-state tourists building multi-million dollar vacation homes.

You are just talking nuts now. We have done several off grid system. So, you talked to "One" installer that didn't want to do off grid with you ...

so you are comparing home jury rigged BS systems with professionally installed systems and complaining about the costs difference?

[ButchDeal]

Installers will only install equipment that they sell. Nothing they sell is as low priced as what you can buy online and get shipped. Buy on-line and on-sale. You will pay half of what any installer charges.

Again you are comparing not only the labor costs but the quality of a UL listed inspected piece of equipment to some piece of junk that will likely burn your home down. Try getting home insurance with that crap. They will give it to you and collect your money but when your house burns down they will disqualify it on grounds that you had a non-UL piece of equipment in the house.

and most installers will install lots of equipment that they source from distributors. We hire installers all over the US to install equipment that we provide.

[organic farmer]

Again you are comparing not only the labor costs but the quality of a UL listed inspected piece of equipment to some piece of junk that will likely burn your home down. Try getting home insurance with that crap. They will give it to you and collect your money but when your house burns down they will disqualify it on grounds that you had a non-UL piece of equipment in the house.

and most installers will install lots of equipment that they source from distributors. We hire installers all over the US to install equipment that we provide.

I have spoken with two installers. Both of them insist that they only install equipment that they sell. period.

Nobody wants to drag some city inspector out to drive for hours to get to these rural towns to inspect some junk. There is no legal requirement for it.

My permit came with a certificate of completion and self-inspection. Because no inspector wants to spend his day driving out here.

[organic farmer]

So you live in an area where you can connect a home to the grid without any permits and inspections...

This is Maine

[ButchDeal]

I have spoken with two installers. Both of them insist that they only install equipment that they sell. period.

They certainly will not install any non-UL listed junk. We have installers in Maine and they install the equipment we ship to them. Every job in Maine we have done has been permitted and interconnected with net metering. We have yet to do a Maine off grid job but when we do it also will be permitted.

[silversaver]

Hold on a second.

Our Poco does not pay money for power put onto the grid. If you net-meter you are billed for the taxes on the power you generate, and you are billed for the transmission fees for the power that you generate.

Plus as a completely separate issue, you also pay the lease fees.

Our neighbor who net-meters pay a lease that is equal to their previous average Poco bills, and they also pay a Poco bill. Every month they are paying out more for electricity than they were paying before.

Also as a completely separate issue, the total expense for their system is more than for any of the off-grid systems in our town [not talking finance or lease fees].

Wait a min. This explain why you against net metering.

As I recall sometimes a year or two ago, a forum member from small town in CA mention about his net metering with small local POCO...... POCO pays him whole sale rate for the excessive power to the grid and charges him high base metering fee.

[cebury]

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

That specific system that Ian leased was a some25at unique offering with special buyout terms due to some favorable legislation that allowed for very early depreciation on the leased equipment. I believe Sunpower was the only company to take advantage of it and expired soon after Ian signed on.

[silversaver]

I have yet to see a car lease that really saves you money then just outright purchasing the vehicle unless you can wright off the expenses.

True some solar leases might be cost effective but isn't a prepaid lease similar to just purchasing a system up from?

If the lease requires you to pay a monthly fee based on an your kWh usage but there is an assumed kWh escalation rate of ~ 3% that is built into the lease then I would say you have been swindled and are not saving anywhere near as much as if you had purchased the system outright.

I haven't purchase but lease cars for the last 18yrs, it is much cheaper than buying the cars. I guess it depends what make/model you are comparing with. For Toyota, you are better off buying it because the lease program isn't attractive at all. I can pay a lease payment of Toyota and drive a Mercedes Benz.

As I mention Ian S, he got a really good deal on his single payment solar. For some re-tired people, they might prefer single pay lease if the deal were same as cash purchase because they cannot utilize the Fed Incentive.

[ButchDeal]

yes cars depreciate over time, makes no difference to the point. The company that is leasing you the car is making all the money from you, then sells the car after you return it for more profit. You then lease another car, which they sell for profit. Had you purchased the first car, you could trade it in on the next car. You are keeping the value that the lease company is gaining...
Depreciation, brand, none of that matters to the point. If the lease company doesn't make any money then your point might be correct but pretty sure the lease company is making lots of money.

[silversaver]

Your comment is very bias. People make different decision based on different situations with different options. Matter of choice.

[ButchDeal]

No my point isn't biased. it is based on math. Yes people still choose to use a lease based on other things, not on finances. Math is not biased, it just IS.

[silversaver]

That specific system that Ian leased was a some25at unique offering with special buyout terms due to some favorable legislation that allowed for very early depreciation on the leased equipment. I believe Sunpower was the only company to take advantage of it and expired soon after Ian signed on.

Actually I have seen one of my customer's one pay solar lease contract (25yrs) almost same as cash purchase after Fed incentive, which I believe was a good buy.

[foo1bar]

In the majority of this state, some home designs may need a permit, some homes do not need a permit. No home needs an inspector.

That varies GREATLY from location to location.

In my location, EVERY electrical change that requires a permit requires an inspection.

[foo1bar]

Both the utility and the town would almost surely have to approve the installation with signoff by a licensed electrician.

A proper installation MAY require a licensed electrician - it depends on the location.
In many locations (like mine) you can do the installation as the owner of the property.
But you still have to do the permit and still have to have it inspected. (and as owner obviously you want to make sure it's done properly and safely)

In other locations a licensed electrician is required.

IMO the best way to find out is to talk to the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) and the POCO.

[foo1bar]

Hi bryankloos. I am a eversource customer in the Hartford area. Would love to talk to you. The net metering application I've reviewed is simple enough but want to know if a diy'er with the proper permits can get approved. I've heard from installers that my chances are slim to none and wanted to talk to someone before I go down this road. I did hear from customer service at ever source that I may not get approval for a while since they're "backed up in the queue"

I'm looking to see what's true and what's not.

My installation is very easy and straightforward so would love to hear your experiences with eversource.

Thanks!

I wouldn't take the word of an installer about it.

I would ask the POCO - ie "If I do an install that's permitted and inspected by Hartford, what additional requirements are required by Eversource?"

As the owner (and resident) of the property you ARE allowed to get a permit yourself in Hartford:

http://www.hartford.gov/licenses-and-inspections/building-and-trades/370-buildingfaqs

*HOWEVER*

Doing a solar installation is NOT an easy thing to do properly.
If you're not comfortable with electrical work, it's probably not a DIY job.
Even if you're comfortable with electrical work, it's a very specialized job - so you do have some learning to do if you want to do a DIY install.
(it's not insurmountable for someone capable of doing their own electrical work - but it IS a fair amount of learning and work)

[progro]

Thanks foo1bar, I've done 3 off-grid systems with a battery bank of 10 L16 batteries with an Magnasine inverter/charger and 4.5KHw so
my installation will initially consist of 6 Helis 260watt panels and I'm still debating the type of inverter whether I go with a Sunny Boy or a Enphase.

I agree that to do it properly its a lot of work as I've done with 3 off-grid systems in the Vermont/NH area (all inspected/passed) it is a ton of work but to comment from another poster it is sort of a hobby for me. As I stated from day one I would have it inspected by my local town after I pull a permit. I've
never done a grid-tie system so wanted to get some opinions.

Another option I've been looking at is the Grid Zero systems from Outback. From what I've read, Any excess power that I generate
would be off-loaded to the battery bank? That is intriguing to me since I do cyber security and my multiple computer systems are on
24 x 7. They would power a Aims Inverter with a dedicated 20AMP circuit to my home office. A bank of L16 AGM's will give me
more backup time than any UPS system at a fraction of the cost not to mention the Aims can signal the generator to start automatically.

Although, I don't want to rely on another company's algorithm in case it does export to the grid.