Grid-Tie without netmetering

[ButchDeal]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

You are talking about financing not net metering here.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

very simple systems have very little power production. Yes are cheap but they also produce little power. Like saying a moped is more efficient than a bus.
Sure as long as you are only carrying one person. Try to move 50 and the bus is more efficient.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

Bull sh!t. Net metering when available is 100% efficient and best ROI. batteries are NOT.

My system has grid power coming into the one AC port on the inverter too but I use net metering and only use batteries when grid is down. Much more efficient than cycling the batteries.


The point of this thread is not about on grid VS OFF grid, but about net metering without valid paperwork, which is can get you all kinds of fines.

[Sunking]

Ditto Butch, great response. Organic Farmer is blinded by Green Sun Glasses and cannot see the facts and does not understands the physics.

[silversaver]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

That neighbor of yours had made a real bad decision on his or her solar, and hopefully he or she did not care about the money when contract were signed. (usually not the case)

In leases, the total payment after 20yrs are always higher than cash purchases. If his or her monthly payment is even higher than without solar, then they are the ones believe solar is free and like to see low payment without facing the reality.

In general, grid-tied is always cheaper than off-grid or others if you make the right decision at time of purchase.

[Ian S]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

I'd love to see the numbers on an off-grid system having less "over all system expense" than a comparably sized grid-tied system with net metering. The periodic battery replacement costs alone are a huge expense that you don't have when on the grid.

With respect to the neighbor, their issue is with the high cost monthly lease which has nothing directly to do with net metering. Unless electricity is very cheap and/or solar insolation is poor, someone with a purchased grid-tied system and true net metering - or something even approximating it - can save a significant amount of money over the life of the system. Going off-grid and supporting a "normal" US lifestyle is almost always a bad proposition from a financial standpoint - far better to stay connected to the grid. By the end of the summer, my grid-tied system (prepaid lease) will be fully paid for; that would be hard to do off-grid, I suspect.

[SunEagle]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

I never said installing a leased pv system would save you money. It is the sales people convince the homeowner that going with a lease is the best way. IMO it will not really save you money in the long run but may make you feel part of the green team because you now have solar without having to drain your bank account.

Just like a lot of car salespeople. They push the lease option to get someone to spend their money. A car lease is much more expensive for a person that can't write it off as a business expense.

[silversaver]

I never said installing a leased pv system would save you money. It is the sales people convince the homeowner that going with a lease is the best way. IMO it will not really save you money in the long run but may make you feel part of the green team because you now have solar without having to drain your bank account.

Just like a lot of car salespeople. They push the lease option to get someone to spend their money. A car lease is much more expensive for a person that can't write it off as a business expense.

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

[organic farmer]

... You are talking about financing not net metering here.

"... their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town. ..."

Read that again. I am not saying a word about the financing part.

Their system's expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town, regardless of financing.

... Bull sh!t. Net metering when available is 100% efficient and best ROI. batteries are NOT.

My system has grid power coming into the one AC port on the inverter too but I use net metering and only use batteries when grid is down. Much more efficient than cycling the batteries.

I have no idea of what I said that you think is BS. You did not address anything I said

What I said is 100% truthful.

... The point of this thread is not about on grid VS OFF grid, but about net metering without valid paperwork, which is can get you all kinds of fines.

I am tied to the grid. I am not net-metering.

[organic farmer]

That neighbor of yours had made a real bad decision on his or her solar, and hopefully he or she did not care about the money when contract were signed. (usually not the case)

In leases, the total payment after 20yrs are always higher than cash purchases. If his or her monthly payment is even higher than without solar, then they are the ones believe solar is free and like to see low payment without facing the reality.

I agree.

Though I did not say a word about their financing or payment plan.

That would be off-topic.

[ButchDeal]

You specifically stated that they had a 20 year lease, and that their monthly expenses were higher. the 20 year lease is the finance and cause of the higher expenses

[organic farmer]

With respect to the neighbor, their issue is with the high cost monthly lease which has nothing directly to do with net metering.

Net-metering has nothing to do with net-metering ???

Aye aye mate.

[Ian S]

"Net-metering has nothing to do with net-metering ???"

I'll repeat: a high cost monthly lease has nothing directly to do with net metering. Specifically, you can have net metering without having a lease. I simply have no idea why you seem to be equating leasing with net metering.

[SunEagle]

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

I have yet to see a car lease that really saves you money then just outright purchasing the vehicle unless you can wright off the expenses.

True some solar leases might be cost effective but isn't a prepaid lease similar to just purchasing a system up from?

If the lease requires you to pay a monthly fee based on an your kWh usage but there is an assumed kWh escalation rate of ~ 3% that is built into the lease then I would say you have been swindled and are not saving anywhere near as much as if you had purchased the system outright.

[organic farmer]

I never said installing a leased pv system would save you money. It is the sales people convince the homeowner that going with a lease is the best way. IMO it will not really save you money in the long run but may make you feel part of the green team because you now have solar without having to drain your bank account.

Just like a lot of car salespeople. They push the lease option to get someone to spend their money. A car lease is much more expensive for a person that can't write it off as a business expense.

I agree.

[ButchDeal]

"... their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town. ..."

Read that again. I am not saying a word about the financing part.

Their system's expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town, regardless of financing.

Actually read it again, you did. You specifically stated their "20 year leased...." That is Financed!
I have yet to see any Leased ANYTHING that is cheaper than a purchased same version of the same item.

I have no idea of what I said that you think is BS. You did not address anything I said

What I said is 100% truthful.

I am certain that you think so, it just is 100% inaccurate
What is BS is your statement that :

You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

I am tied to the grid. I am not net-metering.

your choice or it is not offered? I am tied to the grid an am net metered. I can do grid zero just like you but would be stupid to do so since I have net metering.

I assume you could get net metering as well since you mentioned a neighbor with a lease.

[organic farmer]

I assume you could get net metering as well since you mentioned a neighbor with a lease.

I could have gone net-metering, but it would have cost us a lot more to do so.

Among all the homes in our town that are using solar or wind power the most expensive system is the one net-metering system.

[ButchDeal]

I could have gone net-metering, but it would have cost us a lot more to do so.

Among all the homes in our town that are using solar or wind power the most expensive system is the one net-metering system.

If your system is done correctly with permits and inspections, it shouldn't cost much more do to net metering and would have considerably less battery expense.

You could have done a much cheaper inverter system with no battery and net metering.

The one you mentioned with net metering is a lease, leases are expensive. Also what is the size? and the size of yours?

[organic farmer]

Hold on a second.

Our Poco does not pay money for power put onto the grid. If you net-meter you are billed for the taxes on the power you generate, and you are billed for the transmission fees for the power that you generate.

Plus as a completely separate issue, you also pay the lease fees.

Our neighbor who net-meters pay a lease that is equal to their previous average Poco bills, and they also pay a Poco bill. Every month they are paying out more for electricity than they were paying before.

Also as a completely separate issue, the total expense for their system is more than for any of the off-grid systems in our town [not talking finance or lease fees].

[SunEagle]

Hold on a second.

Our Poco does not pay money for power put onto the grid. If you net-meter you are billed for the taxes on the power you generate, and you are billed for the transmission fees for the power that you generate.

Plus as a completely separate issue, you also pay the lease fees.

Our neighbor who net-meters pay a lease that is equal to their previous average Poco bills, and they also pay a Poco bill. Every month they are paying out more for electricity than they were paying before.

Also as a completely separate issue, the total expense for their system is more than for any of the off-grid systems in our town [not talking finance or lease fees].

Unfortunately you are probably right that for some places it can cost more for a grid tie system due to the fees and taxes and zero net metering.

What I can say that while you may live in an area like this most of the people in the US would be spending more installing a pv system that was not grid connected.