Grid-Tie without netmetering

[progro]

I'm in the United States and have a strong electrical background. I want to install a 1K grid-tie system to start with either
a Sunny Boy or Enphase microinverters into a 240 volt dedicated circuit breaker in my panel. I've done a number of
off-grid and hybrid systems for people but have never done a grid-tie.

I don't want to go through the hassles of a net metering agreement but will be using legal UL listed equipment not
one of the "plug and play" Chinese systems and getting it inspected by my town.

In my area (CT) Solar City, etc. have the market wrapped up and even after calling my utility, they said *you should
really go with one of those companies" which I'm opposed to do for a number of reasons.

So my question is, since my starting system is so small, will the power company see the wattage I generate as excess
or will it be absorbed by my usage? I'm constantly around 1.2KWh on the mains during the day.

I'm not sure how my meter actually is configured for back-feeding.

I know I could just try it and put a clamp amp meter on the mains and see if it jumps but wanted to get some opinions
here.

Another option is just setting up a hybrid 24V system with a few dedicated circuits which would bypass the meter
completely when I'm generating power.

Would love to hear some thoughts and opinions.

Thanks!

[Ian S]

Both the utility and the town would almost surely have to approve the installation with signoff by a licensed electrician. Without the proper meter, it's quite possible that you'd be charged for anything you fed back into the grid. Look beyond SolarCity since they are usually only interested in leasing and their purchase pricing is typically non-competitive.

[ButchDeal]

I don't want to go through the hassles of a net metering agreement

I would like to withdraw money from the bank. I don't want to go through the hassle of first putting money into an account....

Solar city doesn't have the market wrapped up just fill out the damn paper work for a legal interconnect and permit...

[progro]

That's the plan interconnection without net metering.

[ButchDeal]

you stated you wanted to do it without an interconnection. why would you want to interconnect without net metering?
Get the interconnect from the poco, it is just paper work, and you will have net meter billing. Unless you are in a region without net metering then you still need an interconnect and you can use a bimodal system. Trying to go around the poco interconnect can get you a huge fine, and disconnection.

[jflorey2]

I'm in the United States and have a strong electrical background. I want to install a 1K grid-tie system to start with either
a Sunny Boy or Enphase microinverters into a 240 volt dedicated circuit breaker in my panel. I've done a number of
off-grid and hybrid systems for people but have never done a grid-tie.

I don't want to go through the hassles of a net metering agreement . . . .

Then you are not competent enough - or are not willing to do the work it takes - to do a grid tie system safely. A utility inspection without a net metering agreement isn't significantly less difficult than a utility inspection with a net metering agreement.

If you don't want to deal with the paperwork, then get someone else to do it. If you don't want to do that, then build an off-grid system and plug a few things into it. It will cost far more than you will save, but if that's your hobby . . . well, there are worse hobbies.

Another option is just setting up a hybrid 24V system with a few dedicated circuits which would bypass the meter
completely when I'm generating power.

A hybrid system is a net metering system. Just set up a completely independent system and run off that. Or do the work to approve it for grid tie.

[progro]

Good points, appreciate the comment.

[bcroe]

I'm in the United States and have a strong electrical background. I want to install a 1K grid-tie
system to start with either a Sunny Boy or Enphase microinverters into a 240 volt dedicated circuit breaker in my panel.
I've done a number of off-grid and hybrid systems for people but have never done a grid-tie.

I don't want to go through the hassles of a net metering agreement but will be using legal UL listed equipment not
one of the "plug and play" Chinese systems and getting it inspected by my town.

So my question is, since my starting system is so small, will the power company see the wattage I generate as excess
or will it be absorbed by my usage? I'm constantly around 1.2KWh on the mains during the day.

Another option is just setting up a hybrid 24V system with a few dedicated circuits which would bypass the meter
completely when I'm generating power.

If you want to grid tie, you need a permit; there is no other way. You could build up
your own independent battery system, but the cost of a KWH buffered by a battery
will be 5 to 10 times the cost of buying it from the PoCo, not to mention the new
lifetime maintenance hobby.

Your only chance is some dedicated loads that can be operated directly from your
PV solar as power is available. I actually spent some time studying how that might
be done, perhaps building custom DC power equipment (as I had on the job). My
conclusion was that the idea was completely impractical, and soon I built a properly
permitted grid tie system. Bruce Roe

[progro]

Kind of my thoughts is it even worth it. I'll see what the utility says before I submit my application. Hopefully I can get someone
in the solar department other than customer service to get a honest critique of my plan.

[bryankloos]

Progro, where are you in CT?

I'm in CT and designing up a 20kW grid-tied system without the help of the big lease companies or the local installers (which there are many). Are you am Eversource customer?

I'd be happy to share what I've learned if you are interested.

[Sunking]

First problem is permits and code. But who cares about that. It could land you in court or jail. No one cares if you go to jail, one less fool on the street, so have at it with a Gorilla Install.

Second issue is without Net Metering contract with the utility, they will bill you for any power you generate and send out on their meter. They have SMART METERS. The Smart Meters knows you do not have a Contract. So they charge you for power consumed or generated.

Do not comeback and say you will not send any power out because you are only fooling yourself. You have no control where power goes. The moment when you are consuming less than what you are generating goes out on the grid. You cannot stop it. When that happens, the Smart Meter raises an alarm alerting the POCO of a Gorilla Install. At that point they disconnect you, and report you to code enforcement agency. Busted !

[progro]

I was asking about the utility company and said I would get it inspected by a local town inspector. BTW, its Guerilla not Gorilla - suggest you think about using the term "fool" but to be fair you might have been referring to the Gorillas at Solar City so I'm at a loss what you meant.

I came here asking for advice and got some very pointed and well thought out comments.

[progro]

Hi bryankloos. I am a eversource customer in the Hartford area. Would love to talk to you. The net metering application I've reviewed is simple enough but want to know if a diy'er with the proper permits can get approved. I've heard from installers that my chances are slim to none and wanted to talk to someone before I go down this road. I did hear from customer service at ever source that I may not get approval for a while since they're "backed up in the queue"

I'm looking to see what's true and what's not.

My installation is very easy and straightforward so would love to hear your experiences with eversource.

Thanks!

[sunnyguy]

so have at it with a Gorilla Install.

Code enforcement says: http://grammarist.com/spelling/gorilla-guerrilla/

[silversaver]

Without Net Metering, there is no back-feeding to the grid, it will count as consumption. Net Metering is just an application.... You need a bi-directional meter.

You can be smart and creative, but still have to follow POCO's rule

[Sunking]

Without Net Metering, there is no back-feeding to the grid, it will count as consumption. Net Metering is just an application.... You need a bi-directional meter.

You can be smart and creative, but still have to follow POCO's rule

I tried to tell him that. Let him learn the hard way.

[Sunking]

Code enforcement says: http://grammarist.com/spelling/gorilla-guerrilla/

Obvisiouly you or the OP are not in the profession. In the Skilled Trades sector like Plumbers and Electricians have to be liscensed. A Gorilla Install is slang for a Hack who does not conform to codes and safe practices. Sames as a trained Monkey could do.

[sunnyguy]

Obvisiouly you or the OP are not in the profession. In the Skilled Trades sector like Plumbers and Electricians have to be liscensed. A Gorilla Install is slang for a Hack who does not conform to codes and safe practices. Sames as a trained Monkey could do.

A guerrilla install is also one that does not conform to rules and practices. If gorilla is a valid use as in "looks like a monkey did it", it probably evolved from a misunderstanding of the former.

[SunEagle]

A guerrilla install is also one that does not conform to rules and practices. If gorilla is a valid use as in "looks like a monkey did it", it probably evolved from a misunderstanding of the former.

There are many ways to describe a DIY installation that does not meet any code and breaks the rules. I have use the term "Barnyard Engineer" in the past but have actually found some farmers doing a real nice safe job with their DIY installations. So while "guerrilla" or "gorilla" or "hacker" or some other derogatory name can be used for similar installations that can be very unsafe they all mean roughly the same thing.

[organic farmer]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

[progro]

Thanks organic farmer, you're validating what I suspected. I'll be interested in what another member's experience has been dealing with the local
power company here.