Grid-Tie without netmetering

[Sunking]

I could have gone net-metering, but it would have cost us a lot more to do so.

Among all the homes in our town that are using solar or wind power the most expensive system is the one net-metering system.

That is pure BS, even a kid can figure that is a big fat lie.

[progro]

I think Organic Farmer is referring to the installs done by one of the major players. Those installs are a complete rip off that are leased. It sounds good
on paper until you try to sell your home and you either have to buy out the lease or try to get the prospective buyer to assume the lease.

The other thing with these solar companies what happens when the government subsidy runs out? I don't see anyone buying solar because of the upfront cost.

Good article by a legendary financial short sider:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-04/jim-chanos-short-solarcity-next-sunedison-full-bear-case

[progro]

I think organic farmer was referring to a install done by one of the big players. I actually looked into Solar City when I was jumped on one of their reps during a Home Depot visit. The problem with these installs is that when you lease you have the monthly payment of that and you're stuck with a multi-year lease. Try selling your home with that attached to it as a lien holder. You either have to buy out the lease of the equipment or transfer the lease to the prospective buyer - good luck with that.

Really the question is what happens when the federal tax credit runs out? A lot of states have already exhausted their credits and what happens in 2020 when the tax credit is gone? I don't see POCO's pushing for it.

Here's a good article re: Solar City

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/21/chanos-is-shorting-elon-musk.html

[Engineer]

I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to net meter. At least in California it's a steal. With TOU I'm selling to the POCO at peak rates (in summer) of about 35 cents/kWh, then I'm using that later at a rate os 15 cents, more than a two for one.

However I doubt as some have said that you actually pay for backfed power, certainly not with PGE. Most places it just should just count as nil. Before my inspection and the POCO signed off I was back feeding power for a week or so initially, I just didn't get anything for it (so I ran the oven and the AC simultaneously, and every computer I have )

[ButchDeal]

We have seen several POCOs that with out net metering will charge. Many old meters will count UP regardless of direction of power flow.

[SunEagle]

I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to net meter. At least in California it's a steal. With TOU I'm selling to the POCO at peak rates (in summer) of about 35 cents/kWh, then I'm using that later at a rate os 15 cents, more than a two for one.

However I doubt as some have said that you actually pay for backfed power, certainly not with PGE. Most places it just should just count as nil. Before my inspection and the POCO signed off I was back feeding power for a week or so initially, I just didn't get anything for it (so I ran the oven and the AC simultaneously, and every computer I have )

Some of the POCO meters could not run backwards and therefore calculated that any energy going through (in or out) would be considered a consumption by the home owner so they got charged for what they actually generated.

Now that has happened more than a few times based on the input from members as well as reading some of the dynamics of the electronic meters that required programming to differentiate between in and out power flows.

The other problem that some people seem to have (like organic farmer) is the lack of cooperation with their POCO to even allow "co-generation" and if they do sometimes the homeowner is charged a generation fee as well as not being payed for what they generate and don't use.

Seems pretty sh**y to me but without any regulation a POCO can pretty much do what they want.

[azdave]

Some of the POCO meters could not run backwards and therefore calculated that any energy going through (in or out) would be considered a consumption by the home owner

Designed to measure either flow direction as "consumption" on purpose I'll bet so people wouldn't come up with tricks to run them in reverse for part of the month to cheat on their bill.

[sunnyguy]

FYI fronius primo can do zero export supposedly so if you can control loads to get a high utilization of generation on site then might be OK.

[progro]

Thanks. This is exactly what I'm looking for at fairly reasonable price point.

http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xbcr/SID-EE664BA0-3DEE6C59/fronius_uk/Limited_Export_flyer_972848_snapshot.pdf

[SunEagle]

I haven't purchase but lease cars for the last 18yrs, it is much cheaper than buying the cars. I guess it depends what make/model you are comparing with. For Toyota, you are better off buying it because the lease program isn't attractive at all. I can pay a lease payment of Toyota and drive a Mercedes Benz.

As I mention Ian S, he got a really good deal on his single payment solar. For some re-tired people, they might prefer single pay lease if the deal were same as cash purchase because they cannot utilize the Fed Incentive.

I guess it depends on how long you want to own the vehicle. I have a 2003 Tundra with 200k miles and expect to get another 100k out of it. I also own a 2005 Nissan Altima with about 140k miles and it should have at least another 75k in it. My third vehicle (got it from my 93 yo father) is a 2006 Impala. It only has 53k on it and might go to 80k with some tender loving care. (sorry chevy just doesn't make them as good as toyota or nissan.)

What I am saying is that all 3 of these are purchased and no longer have any financing attached to them. They have gotten me many years of use and still have years left in them. There is no way I could have spent less money by leasing similar vehicles every 3 years. But then I do not have a problem driving a 13 year old truck that is still in great shape and does everything I want it to.

[SunEagle]

Designed to measure either flow direction as "consumption" on purpose I'll bet so people wouldn't come up with tricks to run them in reverse for part of the month to cheat on their bill.

Maybe but more than likely the meter does not have a way of using "negative" numbers to subtract what is generated back to the grid so any wattage that is calculated must be in the Positive or consumed direction. Heck even some of the older high end power analysis meters (Fluke, Dranetz, etc) would be confused calculating the power "consumed" with one of the 3 CT installed backwards. It takes more process memory and programming for a meter to not convert all numbers measured into Absolute (always positive) values.

[foo1bar]

Maybe but more than likely the meter does not have a way of using "negative" numbers to subtract what is generated back to the grid so any wattage that is calculated must be in the Positive or consumed direction.

The old mechanical meters had some that the numbers would only spin forward - and some that it could spin backward.
Adding the gearing so that it'd only spin forward is a minor additional cost for the meter manufacturer.
And the reason that I've seen is that there were some dishonest POCO customers that would remove the meter, flip it 180, plug it back in, and it'd run backwards. So to prevent that, the POCO would buy meters that only spin one direction.

Personally my mechanical meter did spin backward - the kwh counted down as soon as I had the solar system running.
And soon after everything was done the POCO replaced my meter with an electronic one (which obviously also runs backward)

BUT there are meters that only count up - and I believe that's mostly to prevent the "lets flip the meter" abuse.

[SunEagle]

The old mechanical meters had some that the numbers would only spin forward - and some that it could spin backward.
Adding the gearing so that it'd only spin forward is a minor additional cost for the meter manufacturer.
And the reason that I've seen is that there were some dishonest POCO customers that would remove the meter, flip it 180, plug it back in, and it'd run backwards. So to prevent that, the POCO would buy meters that only spin one direction.

Personally my mechanical meter did spin backward - the kwh counted down as soon as I had the solar system running.
And soon after everything was done the POCO replaced my meter with an electronic one (which obviously also runs backward)

BUT there are meters that only count up - and I believe that's mostly to prevent the "lets flip the meter" abuse.

I have not doubt that some POCOs installed meters to keep the homeowner from cheating them (funny how the POCO is always considered the bad guy) by flipping it upside down.

Now that the newer smart meters are being installed as standard for most POCO's and replacing the older one way mechanical type it is easier to make changes remotely. It now only requires a small program adjustment to make the measure power going out as a negative value

[cebury]

Actually I have seen one of my customer's one pay solar lease contract (25yrs) almost same as cash purchase after Fed incentive, which I believe was a good buy.

Yes there are SP prepay leases out there that are near the purchase upfront price, less the tax incentive. One of my quotes was just that. That wasn't my point. I nearly signed the same type of lease that Ian did and I can tell you it was a no brainier, an amazing deal, much much less than purchasing sunpower or any of the other tier 1 modules upfront. People on this forum couldn't believe it. A couple months ago I went back and looked at my quotes, which were then 4 years old, and they were $3/watt in CA and ($1/watt in AZ) for the latest SP panels with their normal warranty in 2011.

There are older threads around here where we shared our SP prepay lease quotes. That program is long gone.

[silversaver]

I guess it depends on how long you want to own the vehicle. I have a 2003 Tundra with 200k miles and expect to get another 100k out of it. I also own a 2005 Nissan Altima with about 140k miles and it should have at least another 75k in it. My third vehicle (got it from my 93 yo father) is a 2006 Impala. It only has 53k on it and might go to 80k with some tender loving care. (sorry chevy just doesn't make them as good as toyota or nissan.)

What I am saying is that all 3 of these are purchased and no longer have any financing attached to them. They have gotten me many years of use and still have years left in them. There is no way I could have spent less money by leasing similar vehicles every 3 years. But then I do not have a problem driving a 13 year old truck that is still in great shape and does everything I want it to.

For Toyota, buying will be the right choice since the depreciation and maintenance were much cheaper comparing with European cars. I do not drive Toyota or domestic vehicles, so buying route isn't working for me. That really have to do with personal preference.

[SunEagle]

For Toyota, buying will be the right choice since the depreciation and maintenance were much cheaper comparing with European cars. I do not drive Toyota or domestic vehicles, so buying route isn't working for me. That really have to do with personal preference.

I understand. Each of us has a different justification to what they like to do.

[azdave]

Leasing may get you some benefits that you prefer over owning but whether it's cars or solar panels, when is it ever cheaper to use someone else's money?

[SunEagle]

Well if that money was from your parents then I would say it is cheaper. LOL.

[Engineer]

I understand. Each of us has a different justification to what they like to do.

Electricity rates are so ruinous in Ca that my system pays for itself in 3 years! Leasing makes little sense with that kind of payback. It's so good I'm expanding it to a 10kW system.

[SunEagle]

Electricity rates are so ruinous in Ca that my system pays for itself in 3 years! Leasing makes little sense with that kind of payback. It's so good I'm expanding it to a 10kW system.

I am glad someone is getting their money back using solar. But I hate to see the reason is because the electric rates are so much higher then the rest of the US.

[Engineer]

It depends on how you want to look at it I guess. Ca is priced so that if you use 20kWh/day you don't pay too much. 30 kWh/day is the US average, which is what we used and put us into the bad guy Tier 4 rates, which are at the marginal rate almost double the baseline. Any extra usage above that (e.g. EV, AC, induction cooking) is at the marginal rate so your electricity bill skyrockets. With increased usage as mentioned my bill went to around $600, so figure a $20k-$30k system that's a 3-4 year payback, not including the time value of money of the capital sunk in the solar.

So PGE encourages the use of gas which is cheaper. Bu our electricity is generated from gas, wtf? Anyhow thankfully we lead the nation (or something) in renewables. On the weekend on a sunny day half the generation in Ca is due to them.

[SunEagle]

But I use about 45kWh per day and my bills are averaging $200 /mth. Yet solar is more than a 10 year payback for me.

Also the majority of our generated power comes from Natural gas followed by Coal, followed by Nuclear, followed by all RE (which is a very small percentage). Yet my rates are less than $0.10/kWh for the first 1000kWh and about $0.12/kWh for anything after the first 1000kWh.

So even though I would like to see more solar, my electricity would probably be more expensive going with more RE then staying were we are?

[Engineer]

So you don't have tiering I guess? CA tiering is really punitive, at 30kWh I'm already into Tier 4 which is twice the rate of 34 cents/kWh.