Question about PG&E miminum monthly charge & true-up

[Fafrd]

I found this description of PG&E changes effective March 1 2016 and am struggling to understand what it means: https://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveen...ill/index.page

There is a $10/ month minimum charge that used to be included into the yearly true up calculation but no longer is as of March 1?

So before March 1 if you over generated your net bill was $0 but starting March 1 it will be $120/year?

What about if you owe $120 for under-generation on an annual basis - will the true-up total to $240 annually or the same $120 annually?

In terms of sizing a system for grid-tie to PG&E, is it better to aim for bill neutrality or save some system cost by aiming to be $120 under Bill neutrality on an annual basis?

[cebury]

1 There is a $10/ month minimum charge that used to be included into the yearly true up calculation but no longer is as of March 1?
2 So before March 1 if you over generated your net bill was $0 but starting March 1 it will be $120/year?
3 What about if you owe $120 for under-generation on an annual basis - will the true-up total to $240 annually or the same $120 annually?
4 In terms of sizing a system for grid-tie to PG&E, is it better to aim for bill neutrality or save some system cost by aiming to be $120 under Bill neutrality on an annual basis?

1 min monthly charge has been there for a while, it increased to 10/mo 120/yr last year but is now slightly changed how calculated as of March 1. It's still there.
2. See above. Yes it will be 120 yr minimum.
3. 120 before March 1. But it has changed slightly. It is now effectively MORE than 120. because 120 is the minimum you will pay in Delivery charges, the. They'll add on your NET energy charges based on your NEM amounts. If coincidently, your total cost energy imported = total value energy exported, having a net 0 energy charge, your bill is 120 for delivery charges.
4. Aiming to be right at 120/year bill gets your very close to best possible scenario. If you aim (and hit) exactly 0 net energy charges, you still owe 120.

[sensij]

SCE has been applying the minimum to only the delivery charge, as it sounds like PG&E is now doing. In their implementation of the charge, it is possible to have a delivery charge >$10 (avoiding the monthly minimum) and a negative energy charge, resulting in a net bill for the month of <$10.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panels-for-your-home/22419-new-minimum-10-month-delivery-charge-for-sce-customers?p=307559#post307559

I haven't looked to see if PG&E's rate structure could produce a similar outcome, we might not know for sure until some of the more detail oriented PG&E forum members hit their true ups over the next few months.

[Fafrd]

1 min monthly charge has been there for a while, it increased to 10/mo 120/yr last year but is now slightly changed how calculated as of March 1. It's still there.
2. See above. Yes it will be 120 yr minimum.
3. 120 before March 1. But it has changed slightly. It is now effectively MORE than 120. because 120 is the minimum you will pay in Delivery charges, the. They'll add on your NET energy charges based on your NEM amounts. If coincidently, your total cost energy imported = total value energy exported, having a net 0 energy charge, your bill is 120 for delivery charges.
4. Aiming to be right at 120/year bill gets your very close to best possible scenario. If you aim (and hit) exactly 0 net energy charges, you still owe 120.

Thanks. That response on the last point 4 tells me what I was looking for - if you deliver $120 less power over the course of the year than you cinsume (based on TOU pricing), you end up paying as little as possible for NEM, right? Inotherwords, you will pay $120 whether your net metering true up totals to $0 or to $120? Do I have that right?

[cebury]

? Inotherwords, you will pay $120 whether your net metering true up totals to $0 or to $120? Do I have that right?

Yes. Before March 1, the best spot (for those wanting a zero bill) to aim for was offset all but around 700kwh annually (i.e. Leave 700kwh under production to owe pge 120/yr). If you used 10k kWh annual, target generation of 9,300. It's still close to that, but how it works out exactly with the new changes we have not yet clarified.

However, it's important to remember that with TOU and tiered billing within the existing NEM 1.0 contract, the actual numbers are more complex. There are plenty of people who can offset 100% of their bill in dollars (except 120) by only generating 85% of the total annual kWh. Within PG&E under NEM1.0, Targeting for 100% kWh offset is rarely the most cost-effective decision.

I used bill calculator spreadsheets with 12 months of my PGE GreenButton incremental data, overlaid with PVWatts generation estimates, to get a "net hourly usage profile after solar". I could then estimate monthly and annual bills, with different sized solar systems, and examine how E1 rate plan differed fm E6 TOU to try to hit the 120/yr annual bill.

[Fafrd]

Yes. Before March 1, the best spot (for those wanting a zero bill) to aim for was offset all but around 700kwh annually (i.e. Leave 700kwh under production to owe pge 120/yr). If you used 10k kWh annual, target generation of 9,300. It's still close to that, but how it works out exactly with the new changes we have not yet clarified.

However, it's important to remember that with TOU and tiered billing within the existing NEM 1.0 contract, the actual numbers are more complex. There are plenty of people who can offset 100% of their bill in dollars (except 120) by only generating 85% of the total annual kWh. Within PG&E under NEM1.0, Targeting for 100% kWh offset is rarely the most cost-effective decision.

I used bill calculator spreadsheets with 12 months of my PGE GreenButton incremental data, overlaid with PVWatts generation estimates, to get a &quot;net hourly usage profile after solar&quot;. I could then estimate monthly and annual bills, with different sized solar systems, and examine how E1 rate plan differed fm E6 TOU to try to hit the 120/yr annual bill.

Thanks. This information is exceedingly helpful. I had my own very simple model attempting to estimate hourly generation and usage based on E-6 and EVA rates and when I plug in for an annual bill of $120 instead of $0, the delta comes out to 600 kWh with E-6 and 500 kWh with EVA, so your simulation showing a delta of 700 kWh is comforting that my crude model is not too far off base.

I was planning to put in a system this year to cover usage with an addition in a year or two to cover additional usage for an EV once we get one, but between this minimum billing disincentive and the complexities I am coming to grips with regarding permitting and install, I am starting to think I may be better-served just putting in the full EV system now (targeted for 500-700 kWh below usage). I'll be 'wasting' some electricity (or rather capital investment) for the next couple of years until we get an EV, but it's going to save me a heap not having to deal with a second install once the EV is in place...

I know that E-6 rate plan will no longer be available from May 1, but are there any other pending deadlines I need to be aware of? If I get my system hooked up to PG&E before the end of this year, will I be considered NEM1.0?

[Fafrd]

I used bill calculator spreadsheets with 12 months of my PGE GreenButton incremental data, overlaid with PVWatts generation estimates, to get a &quot;net hourly usage profile after solar&quot;. I could then estimate monthly and annual bills, with different sized solar systems, and examine how E1 rate plan differed fm E6 TOU to try to hit the 120/yr annual bill.

By the way, you've been so helpful, do you mind if I pick your brain with another couple of questions:

1/ how accurate have you found PVWatts to be for your system?

For a 3kW system, PVWatts is showing me 4745 kWh/year versus 'rules thumb' I have been given by designers/installers that are 4200 kWh/yr (factor of 1.4) or as little as 3450 kWh/yr (factor of 1.15).

2/ What type of system did you install? (I am planning on 9 72-cell 335W panels married with 250W Microinverters).

3/ Where are you based (I am in the Bay Area - Berkeley)

[sensij]

I know that E-6 rate plan will no longer be available from May 1, but are there any other pending deadlines I need to be aware of? If I get my system hooked up to PG&E before the end of this year, will I be considered NEM1.0?

Maybe. You can track the cap here:

http://www.pge.com/en/mybusiness/save/solar/nemtracking/index.page

Simple math says 492 / 50 = 10 months left (as of the end of Feb), so waiting until the end of the year could be too late if there is any increase in installation rate as the deadline approaches.

Some of the historical NEM allocation rates are below, although I haven't updated in a few months. SDG&E's deadline is close enough that there isn't much mystery left to when it will be hit, and NEM 1.1 does not look like it is going to be so awful that rash decisions should be made. For PG&E, the last four months showed (682-492) = 190 MW cap allocation / 4 mo = 48 MW/mo rate.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panels-for-your-home/16586-sdg-e-nem-cap

[Fafrd]

Maybe. You can track the cap here:

http://www.pge.com/en/mybusiness/save/solar/nemtracking/index.page

Simple math says 492 / 50 = 10 months left (as of the end of Feb), so waiting until the end of the year could be too late if there is any increase in installation rate as the deadline approaches.

Some of the historical NEM allocation rates are below, although I haven't updated in a few months. SDG&E's deadline is close enough that there isn't much mystery left to when it will be hit, and NEM 1.1 does not look like it is going to be so awful that rash decisions should be made. For PG&E, the last four months showed (682-492) = 190 MW cap allocation / 4 mo = 48 MW/mo rate.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...-sdg-e-nem-cap

Wow, you just made me very glad I joined this Forum.

I'm going to get started on my system as soon as the rains stop, though roof will need to be replaced as part of the process. You've helped me understand why 'earlier is better' and how to track the tail of the cap.

If I'm unable to get my system hooked up by summer, I should be ready just after, so hopefully the max will not be reached before September...

[cebury]

By the way, you've been so helpful, do you mind if I pick your brain with another couple of questions:

1/ how accurate have you found PVWatts to be for your system?

For a 3kW system, PVWatts is showing me 4745 kWh/year versus 'rules thumb' I have been given by designers/installers that are 4200 kWh/yr (factor of 1.4) or as little as 3450 kWh/yr (factor of 1.15).

2/ What type of system did you install? (I am planning on 9 72-cell 335W panels married with 250W Microinverters).

3/ Where are you based (I am in the Bay Area - Berkeley)

SensiJ gave you the critical links for NEM updates/remaining cap.

1. You'll realize once you've had your system for a while that PVWatts can't be used to track daily, weekly, and even sometimes Monthly usage. There are just so many variables dealing with weather and shading (even partial with roof jacks, ACs, etc), but PVWatts gets you closer to any other free source that's easy to use. Thus far for me, it was off as expected: during the excessive rainy months it was a bit over and bit under for the dry months.

What settings did you use for pvwatts System Losses factor? If there is no shade, you can use 10%. I used the settings for SolarEdge and the system losses calculator came out with 12%.

2. I have 7.28kw, 28 CanadianSolar 260 panels using SolarEdge. No regrets but I've only been live since last November.

3. I'm in Fresno.

[cebury]

SCE has been applying the minimum to only the delivery charge, as it sounds like PG&E is now doing. In their implementation of the charge, it is possible to have a delivery charge >$10 (avoiding the monthly minimum) and a negative energy charge, resulting in a net bill for the month of <$10.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panels-for-your-home/22419-new-minimum-10-month-delivery-charge-for-sce-customers?p=307559#post307559

I haven't looked to see if PG&E's rate structure could produce a similar outcome, we might not know for sure until some of the more detail oriented PG&E forum members hit their true ups over the next few months.

SensiJ: PG&E does have fairly detailed bills and charts and graphs for NEM customers: each bill displays all previous monthly totals. I can upload some of mine, but my TrueUp isn't until December. I'd wager figuring the monthly billing is more complex and the TrueUp is a simple check of the $120 amount.

[sensij]

SensiJ: PG&E does have fairly detailed bills and charts and graphs for NEM customers: each bill displays all previous monthly totals. I can upload some of mine, but my TrueUp isn't until December. I'd wager figuring the monthly billing is more complex and the TrueUp is a simple check of the $120 amount.

Yes, I'll be interested in your observations as the new calculation kicks in. I'll have my SDG&E true up later this week, but based on how things seem to go, it would not surprise me if SDG&E's calculation changes and follows what PG&E's has become.

[Fafrd]

SensiJ gave you the critical links for NEM updates/remaining cap.

1. You'll realize once you've had your system for a while that PVWatts can't be used to track daily, weekly, and even sometimes Monthly usage. There are just so many variables dealing with weather and shading (even partial with roof jacks, ACs, etc), but PVWatts gets you closer to any other free source that's easy to use. Thus far for me, it was off as expected: during the excessive rainy months it was a bit over and bit under for the dry months.

What settings did you use for pvwatts System Losses factor? If there is no shade, you can use 10%. I used the settings for SolarEdge and the system losses calculator came out with 12%.

2. I have 7.28kw, 28 CanadianSolar 260 panels using SolarEdge. No regrets but I've only been live since last November.

3. I'm in Fresno.

I have no shade and used the advanced settings which totaled to losses of 10.2% (close to the 10% I was advised to use). This was with 'Premium' panels and my actual roof slope of 18 degrees.

I only need about 2.5kW to cover my usage and am putting in 3kW because the trouble of adding to the system when we get an EV in a year or two seems to be more trouble than it is worth, so I should be fine to cover usage under E-6 in any case and will be interested to see how closely my actual 3kW system matches PV Watts...

Lot's of morning fog here in the Berkeley Hills, so that is the one wildcard in all of these models... (Don't imagine you need to worry much about fog n Fresno ).

[cebury]

Yes, I'll be interested in your observations as the new calculation kicks in. I'll have my SDG&E true up later this week, but based on how things seem to go, it would not surprise me if SDG&E's calculation changes and follows what PG&E's has become.

SensiJ
So here is my latest bill. I'll be honest, I haven't analyzed these yet to verify the billing accuracy/method. I've confirmed the kwh consumption/import totals against my estimates. My initial glance is "damn, that's a lot of numbers"... gotta dig through it now to verify they tie-out.

You can see in the Electric Monthly Charges how the rate changed effective March 1.

[cebury]

I have no shade and used the advanced settings which totaled to losses of 10.2% (close to the 10% I was advised to use). This was with 'Premium' panels and my actual roof slope of 18 degrees.

I only need about 2.5kW to cover my usage and am putting in 3kW because the trouble of adding to the system when we get an EV in a year or two seems to be more trouble than it is worth, so I should be fine to cover usage under E-6 in any case and will be interested to see how closely my actual 3kW system matches PV Watts...

Lot's of morning fog here in the Berkeley Hills, so that is the one wildcard in all of these models... (Don't imagine you need to worry much about fog n Fresno ).

You're now about as educated in the top 1% of folks buying solar. You know your choices and pros/cons just a matter of making the decision

We used to get quite a bit thick fog here in the central valley, but it's Tule Fog not the stuff you get.