Feedback on Proposals in Orange County, CA

[socal580]

Hi everyone. This seems like a great site with a few very informed members. I'm hoping to get some feedback on a system for my house in Orange County. I am pretty new to the world of solar. I am an engineer, so I have a pretty good grasp of most things technical, and I have been researching the heck out of this subject. My business partner and one of my neighbors recently installed panels which sparked my interest.

My house is a 2-story, with a concrete Spanish tile roof in south OC. I have pretty poor layout for solar. The front of the house is AZ 245, and I do not want to paste a bunch of panels across the front. There is a small section of the front where I can put 2 panels at 245* and 2 at 155*. The balance will be on the rear at 65*. I will have a total of 27 panels. The 23 panels is the most I can fit on the rear of the house.

My last year's electric use was about 16,000kWh.

I have 2 proposals from a local contractor. one for a 27 - 275W panels, for a total of 7425W at $4.86/W. This system uses Suniva panels and Enphase M215 micro-inverters. His second proposal is for a 27 panel 315W LG system, for a total of 8505W at $5.06/W.

I also got a proposal from one of the big regional contractors (PD) for a 27 panel system using 280W Solar World panels and EnPhase M250 inverters, for a total of 7560W at $3.81/W.

It seems like a slam dunk to go with PD, but my business partner was very satisfied with the service he received from his contractor. It doesn't seem worth while to spend the extra $1.20 per Watt to get the greater overall output of the LG system. I like the monitoring system that the Suniva/Enphase system offers. Would the SolarWorld/Enphase system from PD be similar?

I am a little concerned about roof mounting / repairs / leaks, which makes me lean towards PD, since they are a roofing contractor, and warranty the roof for 20 years I believe.

I also contacted Sullivan, who refused to quote the job after I told them that I did not want to put panels on the front of the house. I have run the numbers on PVWatts, and I realize that the system is less efficient on the rear (65AZ) but it still produces about 363kWh per panel per year, compared to 438kWh on the front (245AZ). That's only about 17% less. That does not seem like a reason to refuse the project. Am I missing something?

[J.P.M.]

Unless something is unusual about the install, much > $3.50/nameplate Watt is more than the going rate, including install on mission tile. 5.06/Watt is B.S. ripoff.

Lots of mounting systems available, including s-hooks made for curved tile. Google is your friend.

Using quality components , LG, SolarWorld, Canadian solar, etc., all equal electrical sized PV systems in the same duty, location and orientation will produce about equal annual output for as long as you're likely to own the system, including Sunpower, BTW. Warranties are nice but the way things look @ this time, Panels have few failures, and those are mostly infant mortality. Buy an extended warranty and rip yourself off if worried about quality/warranty - better to screw yourself than getting it from some vendor.

Use about 10% system losses instead of the 14 % default in PVWatts for a more likely est. of long term average output. PVWatts is for prelim. system modeling and estimating - not predicting.

Some folks use Pederson-Dean and are happy. Others not. Bigger does not necessarily mean better.

[MikeInRialto]

does the install include a breaker panel upgrade? The quote seems quite high for that size of a system. The contractor who did my installer put my 4.2 Kw system in for $3.3/watt using 15 x 280 Solarworld panels & enphase 250 micros.

[solar pete]

Unless something is unusual about the install, much > $3.50/nameplate Watt is more than the going rate, including install on mission tile. 5.06/Watt is B.S. ripoff.

Lots of mounting systems available, including s-hooks made for curved tile. Google is your friend.

Using quality components , LG, SolarWorld, Canadian solar, etc., all equal electrical sized PV systems in the same duty, location and orientation will produce about equal annual output for as long as you're likely to own the system, including Sunpower, BTW. Warranties are nice but the way things look @ this time, Panels have few failures, and those are mostly infant mortality. Buy an extended warranty and rip yourself off if worried about quality/warranty - better to screw yourself than getting it from some vendor.

Use about 10% system losses instead of the 14 % default in PVWatts for a more likely est. of long term average output. PVWatts is for prelim. system modeling and estimating - not predicting.

Some folks use Pederson-Dean and are happy. Others not. Bigger does not necessarily mean better.

Howdy I think J.P.M meant to say (type) PetersenDean please let me know if there is a PedesonDean

[socal580]

We're all talking about prices before any rebates or tax incentives, right?

What is the best place to find good solar contractors?

[Redokrad]

Hi everyone. This seems like a great site with a few very informed members. I'm hoping to get some feedback on a system for my house in Orange County. I am pretty new to the world of solar. I am an engineer, so I have a pretty good grasp of most things technical, and I have been researching the heck out of this subject. My business partner and one of my neighbors recently installed panels which sparked my interest.

My house is a 2-story, with a concrete Spanish tile roof in south OC. I have pretty poor layout for solar. The front of the house is AZ 245, and I do not want to paste a bunch of panels across the front. There is a small section of the front where I can put 2 panels at 245* and 2 at 155*. The balance will be on the rear at 65*. I will have a total of 27 panels. The 23 panels is the most I can fit on the rear of the house.

My last year's electric use was about 16,000kWh.

I have 2 proposals from a local contractor. one for a 27 - 275W panels, for a total of 7425W at $4.86/W. This system uses Suniva panels and Enphase M215 micro-inverters. His second proposal is for a 27 panel 315W LG system, for a total of 8505W at $5.06/W.

I also got a proposal from one of the big regional contractors (PD) for a 27 panel system using 280W Solar World panels and EnPhase M250 inverters, for a total of 7560W at $3.81/W.

It seems like a slam dunk to go with PD, but my business partner was very satisfied with the service he received from his contractor. It doesn't seem worth while to spend the extra $1.20 per Watt to get the greater overall output of the LG system. I like the monitoring system that the Suniva/Enphase system offers. Would the SolarWorld/Enphase system from PD be similar?

I am a little concerned about roof mounting / repairs / leaks, which makes me lean towards PD, since they are a roofing contractor, and warranty the roof for 20 years I believe.

I also contacted Sullivan, who refused to quote the job after I told them that I did not want to put panels on the front of the house. I have run the numbers on PVWatts, and I realize that the system is less efficient on the rear (65AZ) but it still produces about 363kWh per panel per year, compared to 438kWh on the front (245AZ). That's only about 17% less. That does not seem like a reason to refuse the project. Am I missing something?

PD offered me a 30 year warranty and about $3.45/watt cash on a little less than 7kW system with same panel and inverter. If you pay cash it should be lower than that on a bigger system unless they need to upgrade your panel or some other stuff. I signed one for LG/Solaredge 7.875 kW for 3.47/watt and that's a financing option.

[socal580]

PD offered me a 30 year warranty and about $3.45/watt cash on a little less than 7kW system with same panel and inverter. If you pay cash it should be lower than that on a bigger system unless they need to upgrade your panel or some other stuff. I signed one for LG/Solaredge 7.875 kW for 3.47/watt and that's a financing option.

Who installed your LG/Solaredge system? Does that use microinverters?

[ButchDeal]

Who installed your LG/Solaredge system? Does that use microinverters?

Well it is a SolarEdge system so no microinverters. SolarEdge is optimized system not micros.

[J.P.M.]

Howdy I think J.P.M meant to say (type) PetersenDean please let me know if there is a PedesonDean

Yes, the correct name is PetersenDean. Sloppy on my part. I apologize for the laziness.

For the OP, I've seen a PetersenDean contract for a similar size system on lightweight concrete tile that went for $3.29/Watt about 9 months ago. Up/running, and the tile stayed under the arrays (2 of them in different orientations. FWIW, Looks clean w/no problems so far.

[Redokrad]

Who installed your LG/Solaredge system? Does that use microinverters?

My installer does not serve your area and solar edge is a string inverter with optimizers. I prefer them because I don't have shading issues and free monitoring included. This forum help me a lot as far as pricing and other options to fit what you want on your system. I can tell you that lowest quote I got from an installer on solar world panels and solar edge inverter was $3.00/watt cash price. Most of installers stop at $3.25/watt.

[MikeInRialto]

We're all talking about prices before any rebates or tax incentives, right?

What is the best place to find good solar contractors?

Yes, my smaller 4.2 system was dine at $3.3/watt before tax credit . Larger systems have been done for less .

[mike6116]

My installer does not serve your area and solar edge is a string inverter with optimizers. I prefer them because I don't have shading issues and free monitoring included. This forum help me a lot as far as pricing and other options to fit what you want on your system. I can tell you that lowest quote I got from an installer on solar world panels and solar edge inverter was $3.00/watt cash price. Most of installers stop at $3.25/watt.

IMHO on these days every single inverter/micro inverter brand offers free monitoring services for life, no matter device tipe/sistem size.

As for the 1st post question Enphase offers the very same monitoring system for all of their products.

Keep in mind the M215´s can punch up to 240 watts with out clipping issues, recomended panels for use with m215 are from 180 to 270 watts so you are just 10 watts away from specs if using 280 watts panels.

M250´s can shoot up to 280 watts with no clipping issues but you will need 300+ pannels to have that wattage feed to the inverter, so you may want to select M215 and save some $$ as the cost difference is about 25-35 per unit.

[ButchDeal]

IMHO on these days every single inverter/micro inverter brand offers free monitoring services for life, no matter device tipe/sistem size.

As for the 1st post question Enphase offers the very same monitoring system for all of their products.

Keep in mind the M215´s can punch up to 240 watts with out clipping issues, recomended panels for use with m215 are from 180 to 270 watts so you are just 10 watts away from specs if using 280 watts panels.

M250´s can shoot up to 280 watts with no clipping issues but you will need 300+ pannels to have that wattage feed to the inverter, so you may want to select M215 and save some $$ as the cost difference is about 25-35 per unit.

This is not accurate information.
Enphase offers free monitoring for one year.
the M250 max output is 250W with nominal output of 240W. Source: enphase cut sheet:

http://enphase.com/sites/default/files/M250_DS_EN_60Hz.pdf

Further the M215 can over shoot but not to 240W. The peak power output is 225W with nominal of 215W.

http://www.enphase.com/sites/default/files/M215_DS_EN_60Hz.pdf

The S230 and S280 are the new micros

[sensij]

This is not accurate information.
Enphase offers free monitoring for one year.

Are you sure about that? Enphase panel level monitoring *used* to require an annual subscription, but it currently is a one-time fee of $249 for panel level access throughout the life of the system.

http://www2.enphase.com/enlighten_content/enlighten-activation-enlmngr-cc/

With respect to the clipping limits, no idea where mike6116 came up with those numbers. It is clear when reviewing the output on PVOutput.org that what Butchdeal cited is correct.

[mike6116]

This is not accurate information.
Enphase offers free monitoring for one year.
the M250 max output is 250W with nominal output of 240W. Source: enphase cut sheet:

http://enphase.com/sites/default/files/M250_DS_EN_60Hz.pdf

Further the M215 can over shoot but not to 240W. The peak power output is 225W with nominal of 215W.

http://www.enphase.com/sites/default/files/M215_DS_EN_60Hz.pdf

The S230 and S280 are the new micros

Enlighten service is free, it was a paid service on the past, but it has been served for free at least since 2014 so right now is a free service as i stated.

On the specs side, yes you are right(talking on a specs side) but on the real world all people who has an enphase M215 or M250 does know their inverters run way up their specs my M215 run at 1 hour peak of 230 watts during winter where cold weather and clear sky conditions are true and this is happening without any clipping issue, also there are so many reports about going above 225w with the m215´s so thats why the recomended panels range are 190 - 270 W taken from specs page so a 280 w panel is not away from spec, and then you have to take the degradation factor over the 1st year of the panel itself.