SCE customers - how do you get a $0 bill?

[MikeInRialto]

Currently I am at -23 kWh and my bill is $1 and i am projected to be at -49 kWh and a bill of $2. What do you need to produce to get a $0 bill?

[sensij]

There is a monthly minimum charge that must be paid and cannot be directly offset by generated energy. At the end of your 12 month true up, if you have been a net producer your excess will be paid at a wholesale rate, something around $0.04 / kWh. So, if the sum of your minimum charges throughout the year were $50, you would need to generate an excess of ~1250 kWh to have truly a zero bill. Putting extra panels up to be paid only $0.04 / kWh doesn't make much sense.

[SunEagle]

Why is a $1 or $2 monthly bill a problem? You are using the grid for when the sun isn't shining so IMO that is getting off cheap.

[FFE]

If you are referring to SCE's projected next bill on their website, mine has always been "conservative". For example, 7 days before my last billing cycle ended they projected my usage would be $2. At the end of the cycle my actual usage was -$13. I believe to avoid complaints, particularly from non solar customers, their algorithm for estimating your bill assumes your dollars spent on energy will be similar to the highest dollar days in the past 30 days or so. However, the projected kWh seems to be more acurate for you, but I never look at that.

Also, if this is your first bill since net metering and your net kWh for the month is negative, you will have to pay SCE about $10 for the month.

[MikeInRialto]

Thanks all - I am just not really understanding how SCE bills under Net Metering. Being that I'm only in my 2nd month of the Relevant period and last month was not so great - I'm still learning how the billing works.

[silversaver]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n303790[/ATTACH] You have a basic metering fee of $0.031 per day if 30 days X $0.031 = 0.093 + small other fee. Now, the min charge of $10 will apply to your account if your monthly bill is less than $10. If you consumption power from SCE and your bill is (lets say) $70, you then just paying $1.21 on your actual payment that month since you pay your account in full when relevant period ends (every 12 months). If you have (lets say) -$50 bill than you will have to pay nearly $10 on your actual payment..

My Jan bill is -$53.54 (account balance) so I had to pay my min monthly charge $9.58, but my last month is only $73.29 so I only pay $1.21 (basic metering fee) since my billing is higher than min charge of $10.

Do you understand now?

To me, it is actually zero bill since we get Socal climate credit of $58 per year, so, that is good for about 6 months of min charges. I am a net user so I will be consume more than what my solar produce.

[sensij]

To me, it is actually zero bill since we get Socal climate credit of $58 per year, so, that is good for about 6 months of min charges. I am a net user so I will be consume more than what my solar produce.

The problem with that logic is that the $58 would be cash in your pocket if it weren't for the minimum bill, but for sure, people miss the money less if they never actually have it in their hands.

[mdb]

I am also an SCE customer looking to go solar. My last 12 months of billed usage is approx. 15,000 kWh. I'm trying to understand what is the optimal size system to purchase now that SCE has a minimum charge of $10/month.

It sounds like I want to purchase at least $10 of electricity from SCE per month?
Looks like my first $10 is 69kWh at $0.17 for tier 1 based on the attached pict from my SCE account.

Some months I'll use more power than other and some months my system will produce more than others. How do I utilize the information above to calculate my optimal solar panel system size for my house? My existing quotes are for a 6.3kW system to cover 100% usage.

Thank you in advance for your help.
Matt

[MikeInRialto]

mdb - you definitely want to keep out of the upper tiers. What city are you in and have you looked on PVWATTS yet? As far as wanting to pay SCE the minimum, i'm sure in a few years they'll up it again, so i wouldn't factor that into the size system you want - especially since over time panels won't produce what they did when new.

[FFE]

I am also an SCE customer looking to go solar. My last 12 months of billed usage is approx. 15,000 kWh. I'm trying to understand what is the optimal size system to purchase now that SCE has a minimum charge of $10/month.

Thank you in advance for your help.
Matt

There are a few opinions on this. I'll give you mine for free. And you get what you pay for.

Option 1 build a system that is designed to cover about 90% of your usage. Good for the environment and good future proofing. You will pay SCE about $50-200 a year.

Option 2 build a system to cover approximately 120% of your on and off peak usage (daytime) and sign up for a TOU plan. The extra 20% you generate will pay for Super Off peak (nighttime) power. Not as good for the environment but I believe better future proofing. This is what I did and I estimate getting a $10-30 check from SCE every year until they change the rules. Of course this requires extra work and monitoring to move your usage which is easy for me since such a large portion of mine is electric cars.

Eventually people are going to figure out a way to not pay us very much for the power we put into the grid and charge us more for what we use. I believe a smaller system and TOU has potential to pay off better dollar wise but not as much for the environment.

The SCE minimum charge is not easy to apply to figuring out what to make of it. However, the sum of my last 4 bills from SCE is $5 and I have earned a credit 3 of those 4 months toward my net metering.

[silversaver]

I am also an SCE customer looking to go solar. My last 12 months of billed usage is approx. 15,000 kWh. I'm trying to understand what is the optimal size system to purchase now that SCE has a minimum charge of $10/month.

It sounds like I want to purchase at least $10 of electricity from SCE per month?
Looks like my first $10 is 69kWh at $0.17 for tier 1 based on the attached pict from my SCE account.

Some months I'll use more power than other and some months my system will produce more than others. How do I utilize the information above to calculate my optimal solar panel system size for my house? My existing quotes are for a 6.3kW system to cover 100% usage.

Thank you in advance for your help.
Matt

Tough question to answer.... It really depends on your usage during the day or late at night.

For example, I have a 7.1kW system produced about 11,500kWh in 2015. My actual usage is about 15,500kWh+ and the system is about right for me because I charge my EVs during the night.

Like FFE said, get a system that covers about 90% to 100% usage and sit back relax without worry about your bill.

[sensij]

Option 2 build a system to cover approximately 120% of your on and off peak usage (daytime) and sign up for a TOU plan. The extra 20% you generate will pay for Super Off peak (nighttime) power. Not as good for the environment but I believe better future proofing. This is what I did and I estimate getting a $10-30 check from SCE every year until they change the rules. Of course this requires extra work and monitoring to move your usage which is easy for me since such a large portion of mine is electric cars.

.

FFE, How do you figure you are going to get money back from SCE?

mdb, it is good that you are aware of the monthly minimum, and I have used that to help explain reasons why, under tiered billing, sizing to 100% is not usually the most cost effective choice. However, it is important to understand that the amount you produce from month to month will be highly dependent on the weather. PVWatts is a good, free modeling tool, its output is best applied for estimating *long term* production. Trying to optimize monthly production to within 100 kWH is hopeless, and it is likely that your consumption probably varies by more than that as well.

It is easy to give the advice of "buy big, relax and be happy". Not all of us have the extra thousands of dollars lying around to throw on the roof in this way, and seek a more thoughtful approach.

One point I'd like to make strongly... the closer you get to 100% offset, the more risk there is that the money spent will not return what you are expecting. Please do not take this to mean that I am ruling out the possibility that 100% offset *could* end up being the most cost-effective choice. It very well might be (even with the minimum bill structure). I'm just saying that if the array is smaller, the return you get from it is much more robust to changes in the things you can't control (the weather, the electric rates), and won't penalize you for the thing you can control (getting more efficient, or just flat out using less electricity).

If you don't have an EV and think you might want one, I'm also not saying don't plan for that. Looking at your last 12 months consumption is a good start, but what about the 12 months before that, and what changes might occur in the next 36 months or so?

Before looking at PV sizing, the first question is whether or not there are ways you could spend money that would reduce your consumption. It is likely that money spent in that way will be more cost-effective than buying more solar panels. The next question is whether a TOU plan would work out better for you than tiered billing. Yes, there is some risk that the TOU structure will change, but those changes are not as arbitrary and capricious as some would suggest, and for the most part, telegraphed well in advance of actual implementation.

If you do decide to stick with tiered billing, the bigger question is how cost effective is it to offset tier 1 energy at all? The marginal payback is certainly less than the higher tiers, perhaps below a threshold that you would find acceptable.

[J.P.M.]

I believe a smaller system and TOU has potential to pay off better dollar wise but not as much for the environment.

I agree with some emphasis on "potentially".

After simply not using/turning stuff off, combined with most sensible conservation upgrades, time of usage analysis to time shift usage as lifestyle allows, and combined with a T.O.U. billing tariff, and then sizing an array for the lowest estimated L.O.C.E is one path to the most cost effective way to lower an electric bill.

Bigger arrays will offset a bigger portion of an electric bill, but they are often an expensive sledge hammer, the cost of which is unknown to most homeowners.

If on tiered rates, the first kWh of a bill you offset with solar is the most cost effective replacement/offset. the PV system is offsetting the stuff you pay the most for. The last kWhrs. you offset will be those in the lowest/lower tiers. As a PV system gets large(r), it will not be as cost effective because it will be offsetting more and more cheaper electricity.

If the goal is primarily to have a plan to have the lowest future energy cost for some future length of time, rather than climbing on the solar bandwagon with the lemmings and sheeple, there is a sweet spot for the mix of load reduction, conservation and alternate energy use that results in the lowest estimate of future electric bills. Finding that elusive sweet spot involves some work if the plan also involves not taking a trip to cleaners.

[MikeInRialto]

Someone posted about getting $ back with TOU. I believe with SCE, you don't get money back and at the annual true up, any extra credits get lost.

[J.P.M.]

Someone posted about getting $ back with TOU. I believe with SCE, you don't get money back and at the annual true up, any extra credits get lost.

Don't know, but if true all, the more reason to not oversize w/out knowing the consequences both good/bad. Check it out w/ SCE to confirm.